Charismatic Apostolic

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Mythology of Christian perfection? I thought Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect? Matt 5:48

Send me your address, Michael. I am seriously in need of meeting someone who is literally as "perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect?"

And for what it's worth- even though it seems most people hate to read the Bible in context:

By "perfect" here, Jesus meant "teleios" or complete and thorough. You might say, "Follow through..." Again, read the context:

Matthew 5:38-48.

Notice how "your Father which is in heaven" is said to treat the "good and the evil," the "just and the unjust..." In the context we are being told to treat those who wrong us and despitefully use us the same as we treat our "neighbor" and our "brother." We are to "follow through" with our kindness and "complete" or "make perfect" our goodness in our action toward others. And our example here is "our Father which is in heaven" who is good to the unjust and sends rain upon the crops of the wicked.

In that context we are told to be as "complete" or as "fully mature" as our Father which is in heaven.

The false teaching of "Christian perfectionism" is a deceitful twisting of scripture. For years I sat under a pastor who taught this false doctrine and then I would watch as he lashed out in hate against people in the community, business associates, saints in the church and anyone who dared cross his opinions or mood swings.

"Christian perfectionism" is a two-edged sword clumsily wielded by the unskilled exegete who usually ends up lopping off his own limbs given enough time to do so.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Send me your address, Michael. I am seriously in need of meeting someone who is literally as "perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect?"

And for what it's worth- even though it seems most people hate to read the Bible in context:

By "perfect" here, Jesus meant "teleios" or complete and thorough. You might say, "Follow through..." Again, read the context:

Matthew 5:38-48. Notice how "your Father which is in heaven" is said to treat the "good and the evil," the "just and the unjust..." In the context we are being told to treat those who wrong us and despitefully use us the same as we treat our "neighbor" and our "brother."

In that context we are told to be as "complete" or as "fully mature" as our Father which is in heaven.

The false teaching of "Christian perfectionism" is a deceitful twisting of scripture. For years I sat under a pastor who taught this false doctrine and then I would watch as he lashed out in hate against people in the community, business associates, saints in the church and anyone who dared cross his opinions or mood swings.

"Christian perfectionism" is a two-edged sword clumsily wielded by the unskilled exegete who usuall ends up lopping off his own limbs given enough time to do so.

Joel is perfect. Get together with him :-)

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Joel is perfect. Get together with him :-)

and by his admission ... only goes to church when he's preaching ...

Why you guys bother to counter this extreme doctrine held by Joey and Mikey is beyond me .... let them be.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Send me your address, Michael. I am seriously in need of meeting someone who is literally as "perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect?"

And for what it's worth- even though it seems most people hate to read the Bible in context:

By "perfect" here, Jesus meant "teleios" or complete and thorough. You might say, "Follow through..." Again, read the context:

Matthew 5:38-48. Notice how "your Father which is in heaven" is said to treat the "good and the evil," the "just and the unjust..." In the context we are being told to treat those who wrong us and despitefully use us the same as we treat our "neighbor" and our "brother."

In that context we are told to be as "complete" or as "fully mature" as our Father which is in heaven.

The false teaching of "Christian perfectionism" is a deceitful twisting of scripture. For years I sat under a pastor who taught this false doctrine and then I would watch as he lashed out in hate against people in the community, business associates, saints in the church and anyone who dared cross his opinions or mood swings.

"Christian perfectionism" is a two-edged sword clumsily wielded by the unskilled exegete who usuall ends up lopping off his own limbs given enough time to do so.

To quote the announcer from Mortal Kombat, "Flawless Victory"

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Send me your address, Michael. I am seriously in need of meeting someone who is literally as "perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect?"

And for what it's worth- even though it seems most people hate to read the Bible in context:

By "perfect" here, Jesus meant "teleios" or complete and thorough. You might say, "Follow through..." Again, read the context:

Matthew 5:38-48.

Notice how "your Father which is in heaven" is said to treat the "good and the evil," the "just and the unjust..." In the context we are being told to treat those who wrong us and despitefully use us the same as we treat our "neighbor" and our "brother." We are to "follow through" with our kindness and "complete" or "make perfect" our goodness in our action toward others. And our example here is "our Father which is in heaven" who is good to the unjust and sends rain upon the crops of the wicked.

In that context we are told to be as "complete" or as "fully mature" as our Father which is in heaven.

The false teaching of "Christian perfectionism" is a deceitful twisting of scripture. For years I sat under a pastor who taught this false doctrine and then I would watch as he lashed out in hate against people in the community, business associates, saints in the church and anyone who dared cross his opinions or mood swings.

"Christian perfectionism" is a two-edged sword clumsily wielded by the unskilled exegete who usually ends up lopping off his own limbs given enough time to do so.

My question was based upon your attack on the doctrine of perfection. Not that I am anybody. However when I quote Jesus I am fully aware of the context. Like you pointed out he is teaching how to deal with people in different situations.

Then when he finishes his teaching he says be perfect as the Father is perfect. He means we are to DO those things which he just said. If he means to "follow through" with his commandments what is your problem with the doctrine of perfection? If we follow through in my mind that is the same thing as to DO what he said.

Thats all the doctrine of perfection is. To follow through or DO what Jesus says. Simple.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

My question was based upon your attack on the doctrine of perfection. Not that I am anybody. However when I quote Jesus I am fully aware of the context. Like you pointed out he is teaching how to deal with people in different situations.

Then when he finishes his teaching he says be perfect as the Father is perfect. He means we are to DO those things which he just said. If he means to "follow through" with his commandments what is your problem with the doctrine of perfection? If we follow through in my mind that is the same thing as to DO what he said.

Thats all the doctrine of perfection is. To follow through or DO what Jesus says. Simple.

Hi Michael,I think where alot of people are not understanding us about perfection is, if we make every effort to live holy we are perfect at what ever state of perfection or growth we are in.The bottom line is though,most people don't make every effort because if they did they would be delievered from what ever sin they live in.

2 Peter 1:5: And beside this, giving all diligence, (MAKE EVERY EFFORT)add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence (MAKE EVERY EFFORT)to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall

Philp.4:8: Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things

1 John1:5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:7: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
2:10: He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him

Heb.13:15: By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Joelel

Hi Michael,I think where alot of people are not understanding us about perfection is, if we make every effort to live holy we are perfect at what ever state of perfection or growth we are in.The bottom line is though,most people don't make every effort because if they did they would be delievered from what ever sin they live in.

2 Peter 1:5: And beside this, giving all diligence, (MAKE EVERY EFFORT)add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence (MAKE EVERY EFFORT)to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall

Philp.4:8: Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things

1 John1:5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:7: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
2:10: He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him

Heb.13:15: By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name

I think some of it does come down to an English language kind of thing - and the fact that there are those who, unlike Michael The Disciple and yourself, do not see the broader context.

Though I'm certain we probably disagree on about 101 different issues - if I heard you preach a sermon based upon your post above I would be right behind you.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Joelel

Hi Michael,I think where alot of people are not understanding us about perfection is, if we make every effort to live holy we are perfect at what ever state of perfection or growth we are in.The bottom line is though,most people don't make every effort because if they did they would be delievered from what ever sin they live in.

2 Peter 1:5: And beside this, giving all diligence, (MAKE EVERY EFFORT)add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence (MAKE EVERY EFFORT)to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall

Philp.4:8: Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things

1 John1:5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:7: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
2:10: He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him

Heb.13:15: By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name

This looks right to me Joel.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Joelel

Hi Michael,I think where alot of people are not understanding us about perfection is, if we make every effort to live holy we are perfect at what ever state of perfection or growth we are in.The bottom line is though,most people don't make every effort because if they did they would be delievered from what ever sin they live in.

can you define "whatever sin they live in". Do you know for a fact most pentecostals or christians are living in sin?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

My question was based upon your attack on the doctrine of perfection. Not that I am anybody. However when I quote Jesus I am fully aware of the context. Like you pointed out he is teaching how to deal with people in different situations.

Then when he finishes his teaching he says be perfect as the Father is perfect. He means we are to DO those things which he just said. If he means to "follow through" with his commandments what is your problem with the doctrine of perfection? If we follow through in my mind that is the same thing as to DO what he said.

Thats all the doctrine of perfection is. To follow through or DO what Jesus says. Simple.

Then I guess we are probably in agreement. It's just the term "Christian Perfectionism" comes with a lot of baggage. I have actually seen this preached and wielded as a club to beat people down and as a means of imposing, not godly conviction, but out and out despair into the lives of people.

As I said, I had a pastor for years who used to preach this as doctrine. Nothing at all came from the context that you and I cited - just "absolute perfection" and then he'd go on about how holy and "perfect" God is - and how that's how "perfect" we're supossed to be. I witnessed first hand, literally hundreds of people lose faith in the Apostolic doctrine over this. When I would try and approach the pastor about the effect his "messages" were having and the toll it was taking on the church- he would get defensive and angry about it.

He never once acknowledged the context of Matthew 5:48. Not once did he even offer any sort of "disclaimer" or fuller explanation about what "... perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" really meant. He thought of himself as being in this sort of "perfection" so why should he acknowledge any need on his part to learn?

Entire passages of the NT were forbidden to be preached or taught upon in the church. I could often get around this because I had some standing in the larger UPC fellowship - but if anyone else even brought something up that was verbotim; the axe would fall.

Once, Anthony Mangun made the mistake of preaching on Mark 16 in a local campmeeting. That got some people to see Mark 16 in an angle somewhat different from the pastor's and we lost a few families over it.

Just in the "context" department: though we came from a "PCI" background (or maybe, because we came from the PCI background) our pastor was one of the more "hardcore" and acerbic voices for the "3 stepper way" in Pentecost. Throughout all of his antics and ravings we never received one bit of support or aid from our UPC "brethren." They were all paralyzed by the "pastor is king" mentality - except that there were those who benefited from the insanity.

I once counted 22 members in another church's choir that were either won by me or won by someone that I had won. And that could have been "our" choir, blessing the services that my children and I attended. But no, just to live as Christians they had to go "somewhere else." I can't begin to describe the lifetime of heartache and frustration that this kind of condition caused me. And I was always the one with the "bad attitude?" Riiight. And now after all these years, and through absolutely no direct involvement from me- this pastor's "church" is down to himself and just one family member. Meanwhile the church my family now attends baptized and saw over 200 people get the Holy Ghost so far this year.

Seems like my "attitude" was the right one all along.

And thanks, Michael The Disciple for the clarification. I appreciate your words.