Charismatic Apostolic

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Good post!

AMEN!!!!!!!

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by pelathais

hmm... if "the devils" are binding or acting as a throttle on your "anointing" then I submit it's not the Holy Ghost that has been "anointing" you (Matthew 16:17-19).

Then on the other hand,if you never have to bind the devil you must be in his camp.I bind and fight the devil every day.19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Mythology of Christian perfection? I thought Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect? Matt 5:48

Send me your address, Michael. I am seriously in need of meeting someone who is literally as "perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect?"

And for what it's worth- even though it seems most people hate to read the Bible in context:

By "perfect" here, Jesus meant "teleios" or complete and thorough. You might say, "Follow through..." Again, read the context:

Matthew 5:38-48.

Notice how "your Father which is in heaven" is said to treat the "good and the evil," the "just and the unjust..." In the context we are being told to treat those who wrong us and despitefully use us the same as we treat our "neighbor" and our "brother." We are to "follow through" with our kindness and "complete" or "make perfect" our goodness in our action toward others. And our example here is "our Father which is in heaven" who is good to the unjust and sends rain upon the crops of the wicked.

In that context we are told to be as "complete" or as "fully mature" as our Father which is in heaven.

The false teaching of "Christian perfectionism" is a deceitful twisting of scripture. For years I sat under a pastor who taught this false doctrine and then I would watch as he lashed out in hate against people in the community, business associates, saints in the church and anyone who dared cross his opinions or mood swings.

"Christian perfectionism" is a two-edged sword clumsily wielded by the unskilled exegete who usually ends up lopping off his own limbs given enough time to do so.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Send me your address, Michael. I am seriously in need of meeting someone who is literally as "perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect?"

And for what it's worth- even though it seems most people hate to read the Bible in context:

By "perfect" here, Jesus meant "teleios" or complete and thorough. You might say, "Follow through..." Again, read the context:

Matthew 5:38-48. Notice how "your Father which is in heaven" is said to treat the "good and the evil," the "just and the unjust..." In the context we are being told to treat those who wrong us and despitefully use us the same as we treat our "neighbor" and our "brother."

In that context we are told to be as "complete" or as "fully mature" as our Father which is in heaven.

The false teaching of "Christian perfectionism" is a deceitful twisting of scripture. For years I sat under a pastor who taught this false doctrine and then I would watch as he lashed out in hate against people in the community, business associates, saints in the church and anyone who dared cross his opinions or mood swings.

"Christian perfectionism" is a two-edged sword clumsily wielded by the unskilled exegete who usuall ends up lopping off his own limbs given enough time to do so.

Joel is perfect. Get together with him :-)

[Joelel]

This Is a very important subject concerning our dress and the owning of worldly things. The scripture teaches love not the world or the things of the world, If any person loves the world and the things of the world the love of the father is not in him.

The scripture Is very clear about we are not to dress ourselves in anything that is expensive. If we are not to dress in expensive dress then we are not to own anything expensive. We are also not to own anything we don't need.

The bible say with food and raiment we are to be content.In the bible using the word gold we understand that we are not to dress in expensive dress. A meek spirit don't wear or own expensive things.

Note here the scripture says gold and pearls or costly array. It don't say jewelry, although jewelry is extreme dressing and a lot is costly.We are to sell everything we don't have need of and give to the poor.

I wonder why people let their hair grow long and then turn around and interweave and knott it.Also they wear their expensive apparel.

1 Peter 3:3: Whose adorning( Dressing) let it not be that outward adorning( Dressing) of plaiting the hair, (Interweaving and knotting of the hair) and of wearing of gold,(Expensive things) or of putting on of (expensive) apparel: But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

1 Tim.2:9: In like manner also, that women adorn (Dress) themselves in modest (descent,not extreme) apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

Acts2:44: And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45: And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need

Acts4:32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33: And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34: Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35: And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

1 Tim.5: Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.6: But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7: For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.8: And having food and raiment let us be therewith content

Math.6:19: Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:20: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

1 Tim.6:17] Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;[18] That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;[19] Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Joelel

Then on the other hand,if you never have to bind the devil you must be in his camp.I bind and fight the devil every day.19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

If your words are truly intended to be taken seriously, then you must sadly serve that terrible taskmaster, the ruler of this world who refuses to set his prisoners free. If this is the case, I would like to encourage you that you can be free.

If on the other hand, "you're jus' messin'" then I would like to exhort you to rise up and truly grapple with this topic.

There was a time in my life when I would "bind and fight the devil every day." The major result of that was that I would also have to use the church's carpet cleaner extensively after every service. No kidding... we had this big commercial quality rug sucker and every time we went for the "binding and loosing" stuff we would have vomit and other fluids that had to be cleaned up afterward. A lot of it sometimes.

The shamans of Central America trained their adherents well in the use of fear and torment. When we came against that with our own shamanistic techniques - well, ol' Brother Pelathais would have to spend a lot of time afterward dragging out the rug sucker.

How much better it is to work in the power of the Holy Ghost! People don't suffer as much and there's no messy clean up afterward. The Holy Spirit is a civilizing and educating factor, in addition to His many other wonderful attributes. People are free and in their right minds afterward and not shaking and trembling like they are still bound by fear.

Let the Bob Larsons of the world do the Ringling Bros. type of side shows and carnival. And let the real church of Jesus Christ live in victory.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Mythology of Christian perfection? I thought Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect? Matt 5:48

This summarizes my view on it, a healthy Armenian view of salvation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_perfection


Perfection is the process of sanctification and is a work of grace. To Wesley, sanctification was a grace-led spiritual growth. Christian perfection, according to Wesley, is “purity of intention, dedicating all the life to God” and “the mind which was in Christ, enabling us to walk as Christ walked.” It is “loving God with all our heart, and our neighbor as ourselves” (A Plain Account of Christian Perfection, 109). It is “a restoration not only to the favor, but likewise to the image of God,” our “being filled with the fullness of God” (The End of Christ’s Coming, 482).

Wesley was clear that Christian perfection did not imply perfection of bodily health or an infallibility of judgment. It also does not mean we no longer violate the will of God, for involuntary transgressions remain. Perfected Christians remain subject to temptation, and have continued need to pray for forgiveness and holiness. It is not an absolute perfection but a perfection in love. Furthermore, Wesley did not teach a salvation by perfection, but rather says that, “Even perfect holiness is acceptable to God only through Jesus Christ.” (A Plain Account of Christian Perfection)

Wesley did not use perfection to describe sinlessness. Similarly, perfection is not the state of being unable to sin, but rather the state of choosing not to sin. Wesley's perfection represents a change of life, a freedom from willful rebellion against God, impure intentions, and pride. Wesley also did not view perfection as permanent.

This is a poem that Wesley taught to his followers, lest they forget the doctrine of Christian Perfection;

Do all the good you can,
to all the people you can,
at all the times you can,
in all the ways you can,
by all the means you can,
as long as ever you can.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Joelel

This Is a very important subject concerning our dress and the owning of worldly things. The scripture teaches love not the world or the things of the world, If any person loves the world and the things of the world the love of the father is not in him.

And the possession of a modest wedding band or ring compromises this value, how? For men who are required to wear a tie on the job and also work around machinery - how is a simple tie clasp violating any scriptural principle?

Originally Posted by Joelel

The scripture Is very clear about we are not to dress ourselves in anything that is expensive. If we are not to dress in expensive dress then we are not to own anything expensive. We are also not to own anything we don't need.

On this point you are quite correct and apostolics probably err as much as the "worldly." But what is "expensive?" To buy enough silk to make a tie in the Middle Ages would have required a whole lot of money- a couple of month's wages for even a successful merchantman. Today a silk tie can be bought for the same price as a bowl of Ramen noodles. Much of the "extravagance" of the past is really the "mundane" of today.

Originally Posted by Joelel

The bible say with food and raiment we are to be content.In the bible using the word gold we understand that we are not to dress in expensive dress. A meek spirit don't wear or own expensive things.

And again, scarcity and availability is what makes things "precious" and "immodest." All of the gold that had been discovered, refined and in use by human beings by the First Century would not have even filled half a boxcar. Gold was very precious back then.

Today, the gold used just in the electronics industry fills many boxcars - and nobody ever even "sees" that gold again - it gets buried within tons of other industrial components. Gold is now a commodity like pork barrels and bushels of corn. It's still relatively expensive and there are trivial uses that I find obscene like gold plated bathroom fixtures. Stainless steel lasts longer than gold in most plumbing applications.

But to try and make a one-to-one correlation between what was "precious" 2,000 years ago and what is really common today is inaccurate and wrong. We should be reaching for the principles that the apostles espoused, like modesty. Let time and circumstances dictate things like "how much silk is too much silk..."

Originally Posted by Joelel

Note here the scripture says gold and pearls or costly array. It don't say jewelry, although jewelry is extreme dressing and a lot is costly.We are to sell everything we don't have need of and give to the poor.

I'm "poor" by many standards. PM me and I'll send you my PayPal account info.

Originally Posted by Joelel

I wonder why people let their hair grow long and then turn around and interweave and knott it.Also they wear their expensive apparel.

I wonder the same thing... and when I ask them they usually take one look, laugh and say something like, "Don't you wish you could still grow hair..." And they got me... I do wish that sometimes. Oh, well. Better to mind my own business about styles and personal preferences. If I talk too much about other people, they tend to talk about me... and I'm basically the shy and modest type by nature, so I stay pretty quiet.

- Joe finished up with several excellent verses of Scripture from which he was careful to avoid any of his own personal commentary - and to that Pel offers a hearty "Amen!"

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by Joelel

Fact is,the Holy Ghost will just fall on many and they can do many wonderful works,that don't mean they are filled or God knows them.

Math.7:12: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

In the ESV the Apostle Paul is calling you weak, not strong. Grasp the principle.

--------------------

8:1 Now concerning [1] food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. 2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God. [2]

4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” 5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. 9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating [3] in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, [4] if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? 11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. 12 Thus, sinning against your brothers [5] and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.


http://www.awmi.net/bible/1co_08_01

Note 2 at 1 Cor. 8:1: The background for all of Paul's instructions in this chapter was the pagan customs of Paul's day. All the religious systems of the day except Judaism, worshiped multiple gods and most of this was done in the form of idolatry. They often offered sacrifices of food unto these idols and then sold these food sacrifices in the market place.

Apparently, there had been a debate among the Corinthian Christians over whether or not the believers could eat this food that had been sacrificed to idols. Some felt that this was just food regardless of what it had been through, while others felt that this food was defiled because it had been offered to an idol.

Paul revealed that they were arguing the wrong point. The real issue wasn't the condition of the food but the conscience of the person who was eating it. This is the same approach that Jesus took in Matthew 15:11-20. Paul went on to stress that not only the conscience of the person eating the food was involved, but the conscience of the weak person who observed this was important too.

While this issue is not relevant to most Christians today, the principle discussed here has many modern-day applications. A Christian should judge the correctness of their actions not only on the basis of what is right and wrong, but on the basis of how their actions impact others. Our witness is more important that our personal liberties.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Send me your address, Michael. I am seriously in need of meeting someone who is literally as "perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect?"

And for what it's worth- even though it seems most people hate to read the Bible in context:

By "perfect" here, Jesus meant "teleios" or complete and thorough. You might say, "Follow through..." Again, read the context:

Matthew 5:38-48. Notice how "your Father which is in heaven" is said to treat the "good and the evil," the "just and the unjust..." In the context we are being told to treat those who wrong us and despitefully use us the same as we treat our "neighbor" and our "brother."

In that context we are told to be as "complete" or as "fully mature" as our Father which is in heaven.

The false teaching of "Christian perfectionism" is a deceitful twisting of scripture. For years I sat under a pastor who taught this false doctrine and then I would watch as he lashed out in hate against people in the community, business associates, saints in the church and anyone who dared cross his opinions or mood swings.

"Christian perfectionism" is a two-edged sword clumsily wielded by the unskilled exegete who usuall ends up lopping off his own limbs given enough time to do so.

To quote the announcer from Mortal Kombat, "Flawless Victory"