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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #111  
Old 07-16-2008, 06:25 PM
Rico Rico is offline
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Re: Baptism, DOES IT REALLY WASH AWAY SIN??

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Originally Posted by LUKE2447 View Post
There are two deaths. One your actions and life by turing away from them thus they become dead. That person is now turning "to" the cross thus through faith(positive active response) one is baptized into Christ's death. Repentance actually is part of baptism as to turn to Christ would be to identify with him and not the former self.
It seems to me you have the order of things mixed up. Baptism follows repentance, not the other way around. Also, faith comes before repentance.
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  #112  
Old 07-16-2008, 06:39 PM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: Baptism, DOES IT REALLY WASH AWAY SIN??

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Originally Posted by Rico View Post
It seems to me you have the order of things mixed up. Baptism follows repentance, not the other way around. Also, faith comes before repentance.
I think you somewhere are missing something.
Faith is the postive response to God's Word thus we repent to Christ which is to be united with him in baptism. Faith is from the very beginning but people fail to realize that faith extends beyond mental assent or acceptance but is the reactive response. Thus faith can be defined by repentance unto baptism. It's all postive response to God's Word. Faith turns us from our past toward Christ. Thus we seperate ourselveS away from past to unite with him. Which is in Baptism. We cannot go turn away without turning to. Thus by turning to we must have to unite with it. Again as scrpture says that is in baptism. Yes I agree faith and repentace preceed baptism.


NOTE: I am using repentance as a direction in which we move. "Repent" = Turn away or turn about etc...
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  #113  
Old 07-16-2008, 06:41 PM
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Jermyn Davidson Jermyn Davidson is offline
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Re: Baptism, DOES IT REALLY WASH AWAY SIN??

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Originally Posted by U376977 View Post
Therefore, remission of sins in baptism=not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but a conscience toward God.
I have not read through all of the other posts but I believe:

baptism DOES NOT wash away our sins as the original Greek translation of this verse does not state that;

baptism DOES fulfill all righteousness-- basically it is something God wants His children to do so do it because that is how we show a good conscience towards God, by doing what He says do.

JMHO....

JESUS WASHES AWAY MY SINS BY FAITH-- otherwise, I'd have to get baptized every day to in order to stay clean and righteous. I am so glad that I NOW realize that in JESUS, i am made complete.
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  #114  
Old 07-16-2008, 06:46 PM
Rico Rico is offline
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Re: Baptism, DOES IT REALLY WASH AWAY SIN??

Quote:
Originally Posted by LUKE2447 View Post
I think you somewhere are missing something.
Faith is the postive response to God's Word thus we repent to Christ which is to be united with him in baptism. Faith is from the very beginning but people fail to realize that faith extends beyond mental assent or acceptance but is the reactive response. Thus faith can be defined by repentance unto baptism. It's all postive response to God's Word. Faith turns us from our past toward Christ. Thus we seperate ourselved away from past to unite with him. Which is in Baptism. We cannot go turn away without turning to. Thus by turning to we must have to unite with it. Again as scrpture says that is in baptism. Yes I agree faith and repentace preceed baptism.
The way you worded things in your post confused the order of things. This post is much better. Faith>repentance>baptism>infilling>new life in Christ is the way I understand it. Interestingly enough, with Cornelius it went faith>repentance>infilling>baptism>new life in Christ.
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  #115  
Old 07-16-2008, 06:47 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Baptism, DOES IT REALLY WASH AWAY SIN??

I received the Holy Ghost before I was baptized...indicating that my sins were forgiven and the blood was applied prior to water baptism.
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  #116  
Old 07-16-2008, 06:54 PM
Rico Rico is offline
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Re: Baptism, DOES IT REALLY WASH AWAY SIN??

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I received the Holy Ghost before I was baptized...indicating that my sins were forgiven and the blood was applied prior to water baptism.
So you are a Cornelius as well. I knew there was something I liked about ya, Brutha! I received the HG prior to being water baptized too. Must be why we think out of the box so much. lol
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  #117  
Old 07-16-2008, 07:06 PM
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stmatthew stmatthew is offline
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Re: Baptism, DOES IT REALLY WASH AWAY SIN??

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I received the Holy Ghost before I was baptized...indicating that my sins were forgiven and the blood was applied prior to water baptism.
So your experience supersedes the Word of God??
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  #118  
Old 07-16-2008, 07:08 PM
Rico Rico is offline
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Re: Baptism, DOES IT REALLY WASH AWAY SIN??

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Originally Posted by stmatthew View Post
So your experience supersedes the Word of God??

Matt, what part of his post are you saying supercedes the Word of God?
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  #119  
Old 07-16-2008, 07:49 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Re: Baptism, DOES IT REALLY WASH AWAY SIN??

I would like to submit this quote by Staysharp to this discussion before addressing U's questions about 1 Peter 3:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by staysharp View Post
I know there are countless threads on baptism. However, as I lay awake early this morning, these thoughts came to me. I'd thought it would make for interesting discussion.

The History of Baptism:

Baptism was instituted under the law. In Numbers, we see two very distinct uses for water to be used for purification rituals. One was the "waters of separation or death" and the other was the waters of the "mikevah".

The waters of purification we a type of "holy water" which was mixed with the ashes of the Red Heifer to be used by the priest to sprinkle in ceremony over an individual who was ceremonially impure.

Baptism was a ritual designed to cleanse ones body after having mingled with unclean sources. Prior to entering into the Temple, one was to "immerse' in these pools which were erected all across the Temple Mount.

These pools were to be gravity filled only by a natural source. They were built in such a way as to receive rainwater or drainage from a live river.

The purpose of baptism under the law was to "remove" any impurities physically from the body after making contact with unclean elements. A woman was to "immerse" after her period, immersion after touching a dead thing, etc. If one was ceremonially unclean, they were removed from the community. Their eternal salvation was not affected.

Baptism under the Old Covenant never washed away sinful behavior, like robbery, murder, adultery, etc. People were required to bring a sacrifice to the temple for the covering of their sins. Yearly, the high priest was required to offer the blood of the Red Heifer before God and enter into the Holy of Holies and apply that blood for the nation of Israel on the mercy seat.

The Remission of Sins always came from a sacrifice, never baptism.
When someone says "the blood is applied at baptism" or baptism remits sins", they are saying baptism is replacing the sacrifice.

Jesus Christ was the sacrifice that removed the sins of humanity. This is why Satan would have us rely on our works and not on Christ. If we place our faith in baptism and not on Christ, we cannot be saved.

For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. If we disregard the sacrifice of Christ, we might as well start bringing doves and she goats to church and cutting their throats on the altar. Because the Cross is made of "none effect".

Peter would be mortified if he knew a doctrine was created which has replaced Christ on the Cross from his own words. Peter tells us the purpose of baptism...'the answer of a good conscience towards God."

What think ye?
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  #120  
Old 07-16-2008, 07:54 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Re: Baptism, DOES IT REALLY WASH AWAY SIN??

Question: "Does 1 Peter 3:21 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"

Answer:
As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation. For more information, please visit our webpage on "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"

Those who believe that baptism is required for salvation are quick to use 1 Peter 3:21 as a “proof text,” because it states “baptism now saves you.” Was Peter really saying that the act of being baptized is what saves us? If he were, he would be contradicting many other passages of Scripture that clearly show people being saved (as evidenced by their receiving the Holy Spirit) prior to being baptized or without being baptized at all (like the thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43). A good example of someone who was saved before being baptized is Cornelius and his household in Acts 10. We know that they were saved before being baptized because they had received the Holy Spirit, which is the evidence of salvation (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 1:13; 1 John 3:24). The evidence of their salvation was the reason Peter allowed them to be baptized. Countless passages of Scripture clearly teach that salvation comes when one believes in the gospel, at which time he or she is sealed “in Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13).

Fortunately, though, we don’t have to guess at what Peter means in this verse because he clarifies that for us with the phrase “not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience.” While Peter is connecting baptism with salvation, it is not the act of being baptized that he is referring to (not the removal of dirt from the flesh). Being immersed in water does nothing but wash away dirt. What Peter is referring to is what baptism represents, which is what saves us (an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ). In other words, Peter is simply connecting baptism with belief. It is not the getting-wet part that saves but is the “appeal to God for a clean conscience” which is signified by baptism, that saves us. The appeal to God always comes first. First belief and repentance, then we are baptized to publicly identify ourselves with Christ.

An excellent explanation of this passage is given by Dr. Kenneth Wuest, author of Word Studies in the Greek New Testament. “Water baptism is clearly in the apostle's mind, not the baptism by the Holy Spirit, for he speaks of the waters of the flood as saving the inmates of the ark, and in this verse, of baptism saving believers. But he says that it saves them only as a counterpart. That is, water baptism is the counterpart of the reality, salvation. It can only save as a counterpart, not actually. The Old Testament sacrifices were counterparts of the reality, the Lord Jesus. They did not actually save the believer, only in type. It is not argued here that these sacrifices are analogous to Christian water baptism. The author is merely using them as an illustration of the use of the word 'counterpart.'

"So water baptism only saves the believer in type. The Old Testament Jew was saved before he brought the offering. That offering was only his outward testimony that he was placing faith in the Lamb of God of whom these sacrifices were a type....Water baptism is the outward testimony of the believer's inward faith. The person is saved the moment he places his faith in the Lord Jesus. Water baptism is the visible testimony to his faith and the salvation he was given in answer to that faith. Peter is careful to inform his readers that he is not teaching baptismal regeneration, namely, that a person who submits to baptism is thereby regenerated, for he says, 'not the putting away of the filth of the flesh.' Baptism, Peter explains, does not wash away the filth of the flesh, either in a literal sense as a bath for the body, nor in a metaphorical sense as a cleansing for the soul. No ceremonies really affect the conscience. But he defines what he means by salvation, in the words 'the answer of a good conscience toward God," and he explains how this is accomplished, namely, 'by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,' in that the believing sinner is identified with Him in that resurrection.”

Part of the confusion on this passage comes from the fact that in many ways the purpose of baptism as a public declaration of one’s faith in Christ and identification with Him has been replaced by “making a decision for Christ” or “praying a sinner’s prayer.” Baptism has been relegated to something that is done later. Yet to Peter or any of the first-century Christians, the idea that a person would confess Christ as his Savior and not be baptized as soon as possible would have been unheard of. Therefore, it is not surprising that Peter would see baptism as almost synonymous with salvation. Yet Peter makes it clear in this verse that it is not the ritual itself that saves, but the fact that we are united with Christ in His resurrection through faith, “the pledge of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 3:21).

Therefore, the baptism that Peter says saves us is the one that is preceded by faith in the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ that justifies the unrighteous sinner (Romans 3:25-26; 4:5). Baptism is the outward sign of what God has done “by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5).


------------------------------
Context!!!

And the next verse is evidently intended to safeguard us on the matter so we would not misunderstand the Scripture, for that same verse goes on to say, "(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." So baptism does not put away the filth of this old carnal nature. It is simply "the answer of a good conscious toward God." And the saving that we get is "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ," after His death on the cross, which is pictured in baptism. This is "the answer of a good conscious," a conscience already purged, before one is baptized.

Our Catholic friends, and perhaps our OP PAJC friends, say that when Jesus gave the Lord's Supper and He said, "This is my body," He meant that the bread actually becomes the body of Christ and the cup actually contains the blood of Christ literally, and that these are a new sacrifice. That is unscriptural. but to make baptism a saving ordinance by misinterpreting 1 Peter 3:21 is the same sin, the same perversion of Scripture.


http://www.ovrlnd.com/FalseDoctrine/...mal_Regen.html
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