Ray Boltz????

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

They are not natural tendencies Margie, and the Word tells us that. That it is unnatural for men to lie with men, and women to lie with women. It is an abomination to God. He did not make Ray Boltz or any other gay/lesbian that way. It is a life they chose themselves for earthly pleasures that last for a season but that can send their souls to hell for eternity. That is what the Word tells us.

There are simese twins are unnatural also. I think it's important to remember...we're all born "unnatural". Sin is unnatural. We were born to live holy. However, since the fall this flesh has had PROBLEMS and genetic issues predisposing it to sinful inclinations. For the homosexual, their flesh is a prison with desires they'd much rather not have....yet they have them anyway.

Also knowledge of pharamones and attraction is valuable. Scientific studies have shown that homosexual brains respond to pharamone and hormonal samples of the same gender in blind tests. While "straight" brains respond to pharamone and hormonal samples from the opposite gender.

It's unnatural....but it may ver well be rooted in the "flesh"...scientifically defined as, their biology.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Aquila

There are simese twins are unnatural also. I think it's important to remember...we're all born "unnatural". Sin is unnatural. We were born to live holy. However, since the fall this flesh has had PROBLEMS and genetic issues predisposing it to sinful inclinations. For the homosexual, their flesh is a prison with desires they'd much rather not have....yet they have them anyway.

Also knowledge of pharamones and attraction is valuable. Scientific studies have shown that homosexual brains respond to pharamone and hormonal samples of the same gender in blind tests. While "straight" brains respond to pharamone and hormonal samples from the opposite gender.

It's unnatural....but it may ver well be rooted in the "flesh"...scientifically defined as, their biology.

This sounds like an argument that is trying to prove that all men are dogs.

Scientific studies in what, rats? Mice? Labrador Retrievers?

Your premise that ...genetic issues predisposing it to sinful inclinations couldn't be more wrong. Your reference to a supposed clinical and physicial condition dictating an abstract outcome is untenable.

Sin is caused by the fact that we are fallible, fallen creatures and morally and spiritually bankrupt. Homosexuality and hetro-promiscuity, drug addiction, etc., is an individual's fleshly attempt to make up for that deficiency.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

This sounds like an argument that is trying to prove that all men are dogs.

Give me a break. We do have a biological aspect to our nature.

Scientific studies in what, rats? Mice? Labrador Retrievers?

No, human beings.

Your premise that ...genetic issues predisposing it to sinful inclinations couldn't be more wrong. Your reference to a supposed clinical and physicial condition dictating an abstract outcome is untenable.

You remind me of the bishops who tried to break Galileo's telescope because he proposed a heliocentric model of the Solar System. lol

Bro...all this means is that man's nature is corrupted from the fall down to his very basic genetic level. Even the biological process of aging is the result of the fall on our biology.

Sin is caused by the fact that we are fallible, fallen creatures and morally and spiritually bankrupt. Homosexuality and hetro-promiscuity, drug addiction, etc., is an individual's fleshly attempt to make up for that deficiency.

I think that you're only looking at the spiritual side of this. There is a biological side also. Those who have been "delivered" from homosexuality were delivered by the miraculous healing power of God. The homosexual needs to repent of sin, plead for God's grace, and pray for a COMPLETE healing in body (genetics), soul (mind), and spirit (eternal essence). The new birth only regenerates the spirit. The soul continues to need correction through teaching....that's why we attend regular bible studies. We often neglect the body and sins effects on our physical nature. Our bodies need regeneration also...that's the role of "healing". The homosexual who is saved needs to be healed from the inside out...not just on the inside. They need their whole person regenerated.

It's sad to me. Because it's like we're doctors that have the cure for this disease...but we're throwing stones and accusations at our patients. That's one reason why the Church is such a farce.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Give me a break. We do have a biological aspect to our nature.

You remind me of the bishops who tried to break Galileo's telescope because he proposed a heliocentric model of the Solar System. lol

Bro...all this means is that man's nature is corrupted from the fall down to his very basic genetic level. Even the biological process of aging is the result of the fall on our biology.

I think that you're only looking at the spiritual side of this. There is a biological side also. Those who have been "delivered" from homosexuality were delivered by the miraculous healing power of God. The homosexual needs to repent of sin, plead for God's grace, and pray for a COMPLETE healing in body (genetics), soul (mind), and spirit (eternal essence). The new birth only regenerates the spirit. The soul continues to need correction through teaching....that's why we attend regular bible studies. We often neglect the body and sins effects on our physical nature. Our bodies need regeneration also...that's the role of "healing". The homosexual who is saved needs to be healed from the inside out...not just on the inside. They need their whole person regenerated.

It's sad to me. Because it's like we're doctors that have the cure for this disease...but we're throwing stones and accusations at our patients. That's one reason why the Church is such a farce.

Telling you my opinion that what you said is wrong, is not an insult. Calling me a censorist is a cheap shot. I am not afraid of science, but I will hold accountable and argue that it be applied correctly especially when a peanut gallery meta-analysis is proposed.

Comparing the oxidation process with a genetic disposition toward homosexuality is a monumental leap...in fact good luck landing on the other side of that canyon.

I found your comment to be both interesting and contradictory...

...and pray for a COMPLETE healing in body (genetics)

You are saying that someone could pray for deliverance of baldness, or premature graying, or obesity, or other physical condition. While nothing is impossible for God, supernatural manipulation or modification of your genetic code through prayer and fasting almost sounds nonsensical...especially when using it as fodder to call the church a farce?

I think we can agree on minor points, but your accusations, mischaracterizations and leaps of logic are too outrageous to even consider the finer points.

Dial it in a bit and maybe we can find common ground.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Aquila

There are simese twins are unnatural also. I think it's important to remember...we're all born "unnatural". Sin is unnatural. We were born to live holy. However, since the fall this flesh has had PROBLEMS and genetic issues predisposing it to sinful inclinations. For the homosexual, their flesh is a prison with desires they'd much rather not have....yet they have them anyway.

Also knowledge of pharamones and attraction is valuable. Scientific studies have shown that homosexual brains respond to pharamone and hormonal samples of the same gender in blind tests. While "straight" brains respond to pharamone and hormonal samples from the opposite gender.

It's unnatural....but it may ver well be rooted in the "flesh"...scientifically defined as, their biology.

I can't believe I am going to say this but....good post.

And for the record, this does nothing to assuage the need for abstinence from this behavior. Repentance and deliverance is still necessary.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

I can't believe I am going to say this but....good post.

And for the record, this does nothing to assuage the need for abstinence from this behavior. Repentance and deliverance is still necessary.

I thought the post was ignorant. Sorry.

I don't believe in genetic victimization.

My dad died an alcoholic, I have never been drunk in my life.

Aquila's conclusion is flat meaningless.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

I thought the post was ignorant. Sorry.

I don't believe in genetic victimization.

My dad died an alcoholic, I have never been drunk in my life.

Aquila's conclusion is flat meaningless.

Kick and scream...you won't change the facts.

If your father was an alcoholic there is a good chance that you're genetically predisposed to alcohol addiction also. DON'T start drinking. You'll awaken the beast in your flesh that you may have inhereted from your father.

Genetics often effect how our body produces and responds to hormones. One who is an alcoholic has a disposition of excessive hormonal response in relation to alcohol rendering the "high" to be very substantial increasing the likelihood of dependency. Some folks can pick up a drink on the weekend or in the evening and be fine and quit whenever they like for long periods. Others, it can begin a chain reaction that triggers an addiction.

We can become so heavenly minded that we're no earthly good. We're also flesh and blood. Don't forget that.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

I thought the post was ignorant. Sorry.

I don't believe in genetic victimization.

My dad died an alcoholic, I have never been drunk in my life.

Aquila's conclusion is flat meaningless.

Genetic victimization...is that the same as saying God made me this way?

Our genetic makeup determines our eye color, build, hair color, even male pattern baldness, but is our sinful nature derived from our genes?

[OnTheFritz]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Genetic victimization...is that the same as saying God made me this way?

Our genetic makeup determines our eye color, build, hair color, even male pattern baldness, but is our sinful nature derived from our genes?

No, I don't think it's the same. The siamese twin example that Aquila presented is a good one. Did God make them siamese twins? Or is that anamoly the result of imperfect flesh begetting more imperfect flesh with various imperfect genetic traits? I do think of homosexual tendencies as being comparable to alcoholic tendencies. A genetic cocktail (so to speak) that puts some at a disadvantage in overcoming these particular issues. It's not an excuse, but I think it's a reason. Why wouldn't genetics affect emotions and urges in the same way they affect physical traits? People inherit personality traits from their parents as well.

I don't think all homosexuality stems from genetics, but I think it is a valid point.

[SDG]

BTW ... My daughter wants to thank you, Carp, for inventing chocolate chip cookies.