One of the Biggest Mistakes

[iceniez]

Originally Posted by scotty

I agree, in a good church setting ( such as mine ) the congregation is like a second family. In some cases a first family as I would have better luck recieving a assistance from some church members over family members. I give to my local assembly because they give to me. Spiritually and physically. The church of Acts gave to themselves in order to help the less fortunate among themselves.

I was discussing with a brother in the church a problem I was having with my wifes car, it was overheating and after several checks of other systems it appeared to be a cracked head. I was inquiring as to a shop to have the repairs made that would do quality work and be affordable so I could start saving. This was prior to service begining. By the end of service , having spoken to no one else about it, I had recieved a total of $1200.00 from about 8 or 9 different members of the congregation.

I think many take a message of church attendence as a control issue when it is possibly meant as a message of love and fellowship within the body.

This may be a NEWS FLASH I know, but guess what !?!?! Some may want to see you in church or ask about you missing church because they truley CARE about you. I realize that may be a new concept considering most all churches are really just out for the control of you and your finances.

That is an awesome testimomy.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I absolutely agree. When a man is providing for his family, he is doing God's work. When a woman is tending her children, home and husband, she is doing God's work.

I have yet to find many occasions when attending a worship service interferes with family time. It's the extra obligations, the volunteering for committees, teaching classes, music programs, and ministries that need to be carefully balanced.

Our basic commitment to church IS to attend all the worship services as saints. (listeners and worshipers) Anything beyond that is extra and voluntary. The kids are also required to put those two services first, including in their basketball or riding schedules. NO games on Wednesday night. Period. But if Hannah has a game on Thursday night (when there's choir) she's welcome to play the b-ball game instead.

UNLESS she has previously decided to join the music department and make a commitment to be there. In which case, we would have a talk with her and discuss what it means to be committed, even on a voluntary basis, and she would need to make it top priority. If it interfered with basketball, she'd have to choose between the two. For that matter, we require the same commitment to basketball practices.

Anyway. I think I got off track. Family is important. So is church--including the business side of things. The two can and should work together. They don't need to be mutually exclusive.

MB,

From your posts on this board, I would say you are probably one of the most balanced people (UPC) that I have met....you seem to have thought out a lot of these issues.

[jtork]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

I think some are making this about "me" instead of God. Or allowing some bad pastors to color their views of the church. But I guess if all you have known are bad, that it's just human nature to do so.
There are some churches I know of that the pastor has to work a secular job, to pay all the bills. Because the tithes are not enough to pay a salary, much less take care of the church.

That is why I say pay all pastors a salary through the organization so they won't have to work a secular job - I have seen it happen too many times where pastors who get this big churches get a big head as the tithes start coming in - pay the tithes to an organization put it all in one pot and pay the pastors a salary -

[scotty]

Also,

I don't believe the majority of the issues are found in the UPC itself as it is within UPC churches that simply have not progressed. I have been a member of UPC churches that are polar opposites of some complaints I see and at the same time I have attended other UPC churches that I have thought they were stuck in the past.

[ILG]

All true sis, but...

The "pain" that you were exposed to ultimately led you to leave the conservative Pentecostal church (at least in part). If you would be saying this prior to your departure, this thread could/would be better received. I understand why many may not receive you - be that to their detriment or not.

I am not giving anyone a hard time for staying. I am just trying to help people not make some of the same mistakes I made.

We all have an obligation to follow the truth and do what is right in spite of the church pastors/teachers.It's disturbing to me that grown adults can knowingly sit under abusive conditions or dictatorships and not speak up or act up with righteous indignation. But this is not uniquely a Pentecostal/UPC problem.

If you grow up in a place where emotional abuse is the norm, you know something is wrong but have no clue what to do about it and you certainly don't expect it to be something you find in a church. I didn't even know abuse in churches existed. It seemed like an oxymoron to me. So, I finally figured it out.

I think it is fair to say this...
Those who have had radical conversions - and churches that are comprised of such, have a greater need for intense immersion into the church and it's diverse ministries. They also will have a greater need of intimate Pastoral leadership on a frequent basis. This would explain why many growing evangelical churches have and need constant activities and programs. I think the key is to not require 100% attendance and allow the membership some flexibility according to their (and their family's) needs.

I would agree with that. I came into a very small UPC church. The pastor was very emotionally distant the whole time we were there and beyond. He has never contacted us since we left (and at this point I would like to keep it that way....it's too little too late). But I have heard many similar stories. I don't feel my experience was the exception. For some, yes. For others, no. The pastor taught separation from the world....not to really socialize outside the church, and then he taught the church was not a social club too. He didn't seem to really like people having bible studies with other saints in their homes and things like that. I was almost a thousand miles from where I grew up and had virtually no socialization. Pretty tough for a 19 year old. I went to ALL the church events and sectional functions. But, that was also tough. The church kids had their friends and I was very different.

Anyway. This wasn't supposed to be about me. Part of me thinks I should just erase what I wrote because someone will probably tell me why everything is my fault. Regardless, I do hope to help someone be spared the pain I lived through. I loved the UPC. It was my life. Leaving was like a divorce, with the exception that I never made a vow to stay in the first place. It was a dream I had, a fantasy, something I poured everything I had into because I believed in it once.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Kae

The UPC church that I grew up in taught that the church came first, children second and husband third. I was also taught to never say no to the pastor. I am also very careful of what I say due to the criticism that abounds.

Yes, sometimes I forget.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

The UPC church I grew up in taught that God came first (personal relationship), family came second, and church obligations third. (followed by friends and community.) I pretty much agree with that priority list.

This is what the church I went to taught in word, but the church and God became very confused in action and expectations. So, sometimes the church came before family.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Neck

I know for a fact that many ministers, pastors or music ministers.

Spend their life trying to become successful.

Trying to keep up with a friend or bible school buddie that has a growing church or ministry.

Ever heard the statement, "They give their all for this Church".

Well in doing so they do not realize they are stressing out the saints.

Many of these men and woman burn out and the saints lose thier way as well.

There needs to be a balance and less stress coming from those in position.

I understand they are looking for success and it is their career.

But others have their career and goals to accomplish as well...

When many times as the pastor, the music minister have their sites on a larger church opportunity or the music minister is looking to be courted by a larger church.

The saints have more involvement in the real world and have to live and move it's crazy and demanding economy and timetables...

Good post Neck.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by scotty

Also,

I don't believe the majority of the issues are found in the UPC itself as it is within UPC churches that simply have not progressed. I have been a member of UPC churches that are polar opposites of some complaints I see and at the same time I have attended other UPC churches that I have thought they were stuck in the past.

I would completely and entirely agree with this statement. You hit the nail on the head, Scotty.

It reminds me of the story where several blind men were placed around an elephant, and asked to describe the elephant based on what they felt. Well, of course, one blind man felt only the tail, and thought an elephant was long and skinny. Another felt only the ears, and described the elephant as being floppy. And on and on, you get the picture.

Sometimes, we have only very limited access to a small segment of a large body, and we think the entire body looks and feels like the small part we're experiencing.

That's why I love these threads, from the different experiences that we've all had, and share, we can get a much better picture of the entire organization.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Ferd

You didnt offend me. But you didnt start this thread as a "This is my experience" you started it with an indictment on all of the UPCI.

That needed to be addressed. Several of us did just that. The problem isnt with the UPCI it is with some of what you experienced several years ago.

and if you read further, you would have seen where I suggested that a mistake of the UPCI is having tolerated pastors who have brought a reproach on the organization.

ILG, I dont disagree with the idea that there are some problems with the UPCI. If you want to "help" someone who is feeling some imbalance, then deal with that. What ever your intentions were, you certainly made a clear blanket indictment of an entire organization of men who love God and love the work of God and love Gods people.

Ferd,

My experience seems shared by a number of others on this board. So, how about if we discuss the issue rather than whether you experienced it or not? I trust you are telling me the truth when you say you didn't.