I didn't get involved for several pages of this thread, but I was amazed to see how quickly in this conversation it became a conversation about how the UPC made these situations happen. One would think that what happened to the Kings of Leon was not happening in infinitely greater numbers among other musicians and entertainers raised in other organizations. I have been openly critical of things we need to be critical about, but this just did not add up to me, and did not jive with my experiences and what I have seen all over this country and in the world.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
It's not just a matter of discussing an issue or asking questions. Its the tone and the spirit in which its being "discussed". In case you havent noticed yet, there are some who always have a negative agenda whenever the UPC is being discussed. The negativity of their tone is so obvious that they couldnt hide it even if they tried. After a while that gets tiresome. Its the same "finger-pointing, blame the org, blame the doctine/blame the church culture/ the strict pastor, or blame whatever else" mentality.
Yes, we know no org is perfect, and discusssion of the issues within an org can be done in a constructive way and yeild some good. But the consistent hyper-critical, moaning, groaning, finger pointing and accusatory tone that some people always bring to the discussion is not productive at all. With some of these folks, all it is is another opportunity to "vent" once again against the organization they left... an organization which some of them clearly still have bad feelings about.
This mudslinging disguised as "discussion of the issues" becomes very transparent after a while.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew
I didn't get involved for several pages of this thread, but I was amazed to see how quickly in this conversation it became a conversation about how the UPC made these situations happen. One would think that what happened to the Kings of Leon was not happening in infinitely greater numbers among other musicians and entertainers raised in other organizations. I have been openly critical of things we need to be critical about, but this just did not add up to me, and did not jive with my experiences and what I have seen all over this country and in the world.
You guys still hold dear many of the traditions and doctrines of the Oneness movement. Many who devoted their whole lives and sacrificed to the same movement now find out that, in their opinions either right or wrong, much of it was a bunch of hogwash. They are hurt because they feel like they were lied to, manipulated, and possibly even gave up a huge part of their life for certain doctrines.
Yes some are bitter. When these people finally get out and discover certain things it takes time to work past all the hurt feelings.
In addition, some will keep telling their story in order to influence others who are searching and trying to decide if they should stay in the movement or not. Many come to these forums is search of understanding and I firmly believe that many minds are being changed because of the discussion on the forums.
You guys still hold dear many of the traditions and doctrines of the Oneness movement. Many who devoted their whole lives and sacrificed to the same movement now find out that, in their opinions either right or wrong, much of it was a bunch of hogwash. They are hurt because they feel like they were lied to, manipulated, and possibly even gave up a huge part of their life for certain doctrines.
Yes some are bitter. When these people finally get out and discover certain things it takes time to work past all the hurt feelings.
In addition, some will keep telling their story in order to influence others who are searching and trying to decide if they should stay in the movement or not. Many come to these forums is search of understanding and I firmly believe that many minds are being changed because of the discussion on the forums.
Delta, some have had legitimately bad experiences with some people in the org and I get that. What I'm saying is that that is a function of dealing with a body of human beings and that there is no group of people who are exempt from this. There are people in all kinds of churches all over the country who have had some negative experiences with people. I have had some negative experiences with people, but I choose not to allow it to overshadow my many positive experiences.
The other issue is that people look at some of the people they dealt with and make sweeping generalities about an international organization that just are not true. I am genuinely sorry for anyone who feels they have been wronged and I pray that they can overcome their bitterness, but I will always resist any attempt to paint the entire organization with the brush that affected them.
I know too many great people and leaders in the organization to allow that. I would not trade my church for any other in the country.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Delta, some have had legitimately bad experiences with some people in the org and I get that. What I'm saying is that that is a function of dealing with a body of human beings and that there is no group of people who are exempt from this. There are people in all kinds of churches all over the country who have had some negative experiences with people. I have had some negative experiences with people, but I choose not to allow it to overshadow my many positive experiences.
The other issue is that people look at some of the people they dealt with and make sweeping generalities about an international organization that just are not true. I am genuinely sorry for anyone who feels they have been wronged and I pray that they can overcome their bitterness, but I will always resist any attempt to paint the entire organization with the brush that affected them.
I know too many great people and leaders in the organization to allow that. I would not trade my church for any other in the country.
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
Delta, some have had legitimately bad experiences with some people in the org and I get that. What I'm saying is that that is a function of dealing with a body of human beings and that there is no group of people who are exempt from this. There are people in all kinds of churches all over the country who have had some negative experiences with people. I have had some negative experiences with people, but I choose not to allow it to overshadow my many positive experiences.
The other issue is that people look at some of the people they dealt with and make sweeping generalities about an international organization that just are not true. I am genuinely sorry for anyone who feels they have been wronged and I pray that they can overcome their bitterness, but I will always resist any attempt to paint the entire organization with the brush that affected them.
I know too many great people and leaders in the organization to allow that. I would not trade my church for any other in the country.
The reason why you can paint the whole organization a certain way is because the doctrine of the UPC is so different that other Christian denominations. The doctrine and subculture resulting from the doctrine is part of the whole organization.
Yes, I believe that their are certain bad experiences but I believe that a lot of the problems come from an incorrect teaching of the gospel. You can compare other denominations and groups who have gotten away from the gospel of Christ and you see the exact same issues in these groups that are plaguing the UPC/Oneness movement.
Acts 2:38 is a great message but it is not the gospel. I truly would love to see everyone filled with the holy spirit and baptized in Jesus name but not at the expense of the gospel. The holiness movement, charismatics, word of faith, prosperity gospel, Oneness Pentecostals, Mormons, JW, all faced and are facing the consequences of not placing enough emphasis on the foundation of Jesus Christ and simplicity of the gospel. What happens is folks start to put their faith in something other than Christ.
The reason why you can paint the whole organization a certain way is because the doctrine of the UPC is so different that other Christian denominations. The doctrine and subculture resulting from the doctrine is part of the whole organization.
Yes, I believe that their are certain bad experiences but I believe that a lot of the problems come from an incorrect teaching of the gospel. You can compare other denominations and groups who have gotten away from the gospel of Christ and you see the exact same issues in these groups that are plaguing the UPC/Oneness movement.
Acts 2:38 is a great message but it is not the gospel. I truly would love to see everyone filled with the holy spirit and baptized in Jesus name but not at the expense of the gospel. The holiness movement, charismatics, word of faith, prosperity gospel, Oneness Pentecostals, Mormons, JW, all faced and are facing the consequences of not placing enough emphasis on the foundation of Jesus Christ and simplicity of the gospel. What happens is folks start to put their faith in something other than Christ.
DG, Can you guess who wrote this:
Quote:
We are not saved by works in the sense of earning, meriting, or purchasing salvation by good works. However, the grace of God will lead to good works and holiness of life. After Ephesians 2:8-9 emphatically teaches salvation by grace and not works, the next verse continues, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them:" God gives us grace expressly to enable us to produce good works. "And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work" (II Corinthians 9:8). God's grace has come to show us how to live righteous, holy lives and to give us power to do so. "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12).
Grace does not give license to sin. "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid" (Romans 6:1-2). "Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid" (Romans 6:15). On the contrary, grace makes the power of the Spirit available to us. If we follow the Spirit, we can fulfill all the righteousness that the law of Moses demanded but could not give (Romans 8:3-4).
In sum, God's grace brings salvation as a free gift, including the power to live righteously. Although we cannot earn the gift of salvation, once we receive it our lives will change and we will begin to do good works as a result. If we do not manifest righteous and godly attributes, then we are not letting God's saving grace work in us. We cannot separate grace from a life of devotion and obedience to Christ.
If the doctrine of grace teaches that God does all the work in man's salvation, are all men automatically saved? This cannot be true because many will receive eternal damnation at the last judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). If the doctrine of grace teaches that man cannot assist God in providing salvation, does God unconditionally choose certain ones to be saved regardless of their own attitudes and responses? This cannot be true either because God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). If He chose some unconditionally, His fairness would cause Him to choose all. The doctrine of faith helps us understand the answer to both of the above questions.
Faith is the means by which man accepts and receives God's saving grace (Romans 3:21-31; Ephesians 2:8). Man cannot help God in providing salvation, but man does have the responsibility to accept or reject what God offers. Man's response to God in accepting His work of salvation is called faith. Thus faith is the channel through which God's grace comes to man. Both God's grace and man faith are necessary for salvation. "Without faith it is impossible to please him [God]" (Hebrews 11:6). One Protestant author stated, "That man must do something to take advantage of God's provision of salvation through Christ does no violence to the doctrine of grace. Theologically as well as etymologically there are two aspects of charis (grace): unmerited provision and thankful reception." [3]
However, we must avoid saying that salvation comes partly from man. When man accepts grace the credit belongs wholly to God and the power of His grace, but when man rejects grace the blame falls wholly upon man and his unbelief. Thus we affirm both salvation by grace alone and the responsibility of man to accept salvation.
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
DG, Can you guess who wrote this:
We are not saved by works in the sense of earning, meriting, or purchasing salvation by good works. However, the grace of God will lead to good works and holiness of life. After Ephesians 2:8-9 emphatically teaches salvation by grace and not works, the next verse continues, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them:" God gives us grace expressly to enable us to produce good works. "And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work" (II Corinthians 9:8). God's grace has come to show us how to live righteous, holy lives and to give us power to do so. "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12).
Grace does not give license to sin. "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid" (Romans 6:1-2). "Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid" (Romans 6:15). On the contrary, grace makes the power of the Spirit available to us. If we follow the Spirit, we can fulfill all the righteousness that the law of Moses demanded but could not give (Romans 8:3-4).
In sum, God's grace brings salvation as a free gift, including the power to live righteously. Although we cannot earn the gift of salvation, once we receive it our lives will change and we will begin to do good works as a result. If we do not manifest righteous and godly attributes, then we are not letting God's saving grace work in us. We cannot separate grace from a life of devotion and obedience to Christ.
If the doctrine of grace teaches that God does all the work in man's salvation, are all men automatically saved? This cannot be true because many will receive eternal damnation at the last judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). If the doctrine of grace teaches that man cannot assist God in providing salvation, does God unconditionally choose certain ones to be saved regardless of their own attitudes and responses? This cannot be true either because God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). If He chose some unconditionally, His fairness would cause Him to choose all. The doctrine of faith helps us understand the answer to both of the above questions.
Faith is the means by which man accepts and receives God's saving grace (Romans 3:21-31; Ephesians 2:8). Man cannot help God in providing salvation, but man does have the responsibility to accept or reject what God offers. Man's response to God in accepting His work of salvation is called faith. Thus faith is the channel through which God's grace comes to man. Both God's grace and man faith are necessary for salvation. "Without faith it is impossible to please him [God]" (Hebrews 11:6). One Protestant author stated, "That man must do something to take advantage of God's provision of salvation through Christ does no violence to the doctrine of grace. Theologically as well as etymologically there are two aspects of charis (grace): unmerited provision and thankful reception." [3]
However, we must avoid saying that salvation comes partly from man. When man accepts grace the credit belongs wholly to God and the power of His grace, but when man rejects grace the blame falls wholly upon man and his unbelief. Thus we affirm both salvation by grace alone and the responsibility of man to accept salvation.
My guess would be Bernard or it might be Seagraves.
Yes, I realize that these guys have to say we are saved by grace through faith or they would have no credibility at all in the academic world but if you closely examine the whole of Bernard's teaching there is no doubt that he contradicts himself.
He will say all day long that we are justified by faith but then say that the way we accept that faith is through the holy spirit, meaning the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues and water baptism only in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.
My guess would be Bernard or it might be Seagraves.
Yes, I realize that these guys have to say we are saved by grace through faith or they would have no credibility at all in the academic world but if you closely examine the whole of Bernard's teaching there is no doubt that he contradicts himself.
He will say all day long that we are justified by faith but then say that the way we accept that faith is through the holy spirit, meaning the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues and water baptism only in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.
Why don't you read Bernard for yourself and make up your own mind instead of having Gillispie do that for you? I don't agree with everything DB says but I see how his view fits all the pieces of the puzzle together better than the evangelical view which is found on the In Christ Alone site.
Quote:
Examples of Insufficient Belief
The Scripture gives many examples of people who had some degree of faith in Christ but who were not saved. This demonstrates that a person can have a mental belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior and yet not obey Him, rely upon Him, or commit himself to Him to the point of salvation.
For example, many people in Israel believed on Jesus when they saw the miracles He performed. However, Jesus did not commit Himself to them because He knew their hearts. They had not fully committed themselves to Him as Lord of their lives (John 2:23-25).
Similarly, many of the Jewish religious leaders believed on Jesus but they did not confess Him for fear of being put out of the synagogues. They loved the praise of men more than the praise of God (John 12:42-43). God did not accept them because they did not act upon their belief.
According to Jesus, some people do great miracles in His name, yet if they refuse to do God's will, they will not be saved (Matthew 7:21-27). They will have enough faith for miracles but not enough faith to obey God's Word in all things. They will have faith but not saving faith.
The Samaritans believed Philip's preaching and were baptized, yet they did not receive the Spirit of God until Peter and John came (Acts 8:12-17). Simon the magician was one who believed and was baptized, but he later tried to buy spiritual power and blessings with money (Acts 8:18-19). Peter rebuked him and told him to repent of his wickedness, saying, "Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God… For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity" (Acts 8:21-23). He was not saved at this point, even though he had believed to some extent.
Even the devils believe in one God (James 2:19), which is more than some do. Not only do they believe, but they confess Jesus to be the Son of God (Matthew 8:29). Despite their belief and confession, however, they do not have saving faith.
In each of these cases, there was mental understanding and assent, but there was also a lack of total commitment to Jesus and obedience to His Word. The people possessed a degree of faith but not enough to bring about salvation. Saving faith, then, is inseparably linked with obedience. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...al/New-Top.htm
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
You guys still hold dear many of the traditions and doctrines of the Oneness movement. Many who devoted their whole lives and sacrificed to the same movement now find out that, in their opinions either right or wrong, much of it was a bunch of hogwash. They are hurt because they feel like they were lied to, manipulated, and possibly even gave up a huge part of their life for certain doctrines.
Yes some are bitter. When these people finally get out and discover certain things it takes time to work past all the hurt feelings.
In addition, some will keep telling their story in order to influence others who are searching and trying to decide if they should stay in the movement or not. Many come to these forums is search of understanding and I firmly believe that many minds are being changed because of the discussion on the forums.
Translation: some are bitter , and use AFF as a tool to try to bad-mouth the organization whenever possible, in order to influence others to leave it just like they did.
I think most of us here know by now that there are some who have that very agenda. Thing is though, most of those arent intellectually honest enough to explicitly admit that they actually do have such an agenda.
__________________ http://endtimeobserver.blogspot.com
Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever.
My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. 
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