Can you guys please give me an example of the wild allegations made by myself or AAK? We added to the discussion a few issues that we deemed very specific to Pentecostalism and the Oneness movement and possible reasons why so many young folks are leaving. We all know that the youth of every other denomination are leaving also but I am not so sure that they are leaving for the same reasons.
If you want to take issue with these then please do so but don't rant and rave about how we are attacking. Almost 100% of all that I talk to that leave the UPC have the same issues with the out of control altar calls and most of them consider it just a bunch of hype and some even question if God is even real after seeing these displays.
DG, I did not specify that you two were making all the wild allegations. If you look back through the thread, they are there as plain as day and it just did not make sense to me.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
DG, I did not specify that you two were making all the wild allegations. If you look back through the thread, they are there as plain as day and it just did not make sense to me.
Ok, no problem but I thought you already dealt with that person.
OLD? You know whats old? All the finger pointing any time someone in the UPCI or similar group fails God. The finger pointing at the org, the leaders of the org, the pastor, the teachings, the practices, etc., rather than pointing the finger at the individual that has a free will of their own to choose.
Its really really old actually. Been happening since the garden. Adam pointed at the woman, the woman pointed at the serpent, and they all suffered the consequences. But it still all came down to personal choice for both Adam and Eve. I guess they could have blamed God for putting that stupid tree in the garden...
Quote:
Originally Posted by aak1972
I think delta and I have both had the same experience when it comes to getting any honest question answered. I am not pointing fingers but it has seemed if you question anything you get blasted.
It's not just a matter of discussing an issue or asking questions. Its the tone and the spirit in which its being "discussed". In case you havent noticed yet, there are some who always have a negative agenda whenever the UPC is being discussed. The negativity of their tone is so obvious that they couldnt hide it even if they tried. After a while that gets tiresome. Its the same "finger-pointing, blame the org, blame the doctine/blame the church culture/ the strict pastor, or blame whatever else" mentality.
Yes, we know no org is perfect, and discusssion of the issues within an org can be done in a constructive way and yeild some good. But the consistent hyper-critical, moaning, groaning, finger pointing and accusatory tone that some people always bring to the discussion is not productive at all. With some of these folks, all it is is another opportunity to "vent" once again against the organization they left... an organization which some of them clearly still have bad feelings about.
This mudslinging disguised as "discussion of the issues" becomes very transparent after a while.
__________________ http://endtimeobserver.blogspot.com
Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever.
I didn't get involved for several pages of this thread, but I was amazed to see how quickly in this conversation it became a conversation about how the UPC made these situations happen. One would think that what happened to the Kings of Leon was not happening in infinitely greater numbers among other musicians and entertainers raised in other organizations. I have been openly critical of things we need to be critical about, but this just did not add up to me, and did not jive with my experiences and what I have seen all over this country and in the world.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
It's not just a matter of discussing an issue or asking questions. Its the tone and the spirit in which its being "discussed". In case you havent noticed yet, there are some who always have a negative agenda whenever the UPC is being discussed. The negativity of their tone is so obvious that they couldnt hide it even if they tried. After a while that gets tiresome. Its the same "finger-pointing, blame the org, blame the doctine/blame the church culture/ the strict pastor, or blame whatever else" mentality.
Yes, we know no org is perfect, and discusssion of the issues within an org can be done in a constructive way and yeild some good. But the consistent hyper-critical, moaning, groaning, finger pointing and accusatory tone that some people always bring to the discussion is not productive at all. With some of these folks, all it is is another opportunity to "vent" once again against the organization they left... an organization which some of them clearly still have bad feelings about.
This mudslinging disguised as "discussion of the issues" becomes very transparent after a while.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew
I didn't get involved for several pages of this thread, but I was amazed to see how quickly in this conversation it became a conversation about how the UPC made these situations happen. One would think that what happened to the Kings of Leon was not happening in infinitely greater numbers among other musicians and entertainers raised in other organizations. I have been openly critical of things we need to be critical about, but this just did not add up to me, and did not jive with my experiences and what I have seen all over this country and in the world.
You guys still hold dear many of the traditions and doctrines of the Oneness movement. Many who devoted their whole lives and sacrificed to the same movement now find out that, in their opinions either right or wrong, much of it was a bunch of hogwash. They are hurt because they feel like they were lied to, manipulated, and possibly even gave up a huge part of their life for certain doctrines.
Yes some are bitter. When these people finally get out and discover certain things it takes time to work past all the hurt feelings.
In addition, some will keep telling their story in order to influence others who are searching and trying to decide if they should stay in the movement or not. Many come to these forums is search of understanding and I firmly believe that many minds are being changed because of the discussion on the forums.
You guys still hold dear many of the traditions and doctrines of the Oneness movement. Many who devoted their whole lives and sacrificed to the same movement now find out that, in their opinions either right or wrong, much of it was a bunch of hogwash. They are hurt because they feel like they were lied to, manipulated, and possibly even gave up a huge part of their life for certain doctrines.
Yes some are bitter. When these people finally get out and discover certain things it takes time to work past all the hurt feelings.
In addition, some will keep telling their story in order to influence others who are searching and trying to decide if they should stay in the movement or not. Many come to these forums is search of understanding and I firmly believe that many minds are being changed because of the discussion on the forums.
Delta, some have had legitimately bad experiences with some people in the org and I get that. What I'm saying is that that is a function of dealing with a body of human beings and that there is no group of people who are exempt from this. There are people in all kinds of churches all over the country who have had some negative experiences with people. I have had some negative experiences with people, but I choose not to allow it to overshadow my many positive experiences.
The other issue is that people look at some of the people they dealt with and make sweeping generalities about an international organization that just are not true. I am genuinely sorry for anyone who feels they have been wronged and I pray that they can overcome their bitterness, but I will always resist any attempt to paint the entire organization with the brush that affected them.
I know too many great people and leaders in the organization to allow that. I would not trade my church for any other in the country.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
You guys still hold dear many of the traditions and doctrines of the Oneness movement. Many who devoted their whole lives and sacrificed to the same movement now find out that, in their opinions either right or wrong, much of it was a bunch of hogwash. They are hurt because they feel like they were lied to, manipulated, and possibly even gave up a huge part of their life for certain doctrines.
Yes some are bitter. When these people finally get out and discover certain things it takes time to work past all the hurt feelings.
In addition, some will keep telling their story in order to influence others who are searching and trying to decide if they should stay in the movement or not. Many come to these forums is search of understanding and I firmly believe that many minds are being changed because of the discussion on the forums.
Translation: some are bitter , and use AFF as a tool to try to bad-mouth the organization whenever possible, in order to influence others to leave it just like they did.
I think most of us here know by now that there are some who have that very agenda. Thing is though, most of those arent intellectually honest enough to explicitly admit that they actually do have such an agenda.
__________________ http://endtimeobserver.blogspot.com
Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever.
Delta, some have had legitimately bad experiences with some people in the org and I get that. What I'm saying is that that is a function of dealing with a body of human beings and that there is no group of people who are exempt from this. There are people in all kinds of churches all over the country who have had some negative experiences with people. I have had some negative experiences with people, but I choose not to allow it to overshadow my many positive experiences.
The other issue is that people look at some of the people they dealt with and make sweeping generalities about an international organization that just are not true. I am genuinely sorry for anyone who feels they have been wronged and I pray that they can overcome their bitterness, but I will always resist any attempt to paint the entire organization with the brush that affected them.
I know too many great people and leaders in the organization to allow that. I would not trade my church for any other in the country.
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
Delta, some have had legitimately bad experiences with some people in the org and I get that. What I'm saying is that that is a function of dealing with a body of human beings and that there is no group of people who are exempt from this. There are people in all kinds of churches all over the country who have had some negative experiences with people. I have had some negative experiences with people, but I choose not to allow it to overshadow my many positive experiences.
The other issue is that people look at some of the people they dealt with and make sweeping generalities about an international organization that just are not true. I am genuinely sorry for anyone who feels they have been wronged and I pray that they can overcome their bitterness, but I will always resist any attempt to paint the entire organization with the brush that affected them.
I know too many great people and leaders in the organization to allow that. I would not trade my church for any other in the country.
The reason why you can paint the whole organization a certain way is because the doctrine of the UPC is so different that other Christian denominations. The doctrine and subculture resulting from the doctrine is part of the whole organization.
Yes, I believe that their are certain bad experiences but I believe that a lot of the problems come from an incorrect teaching of the gospel. You can compare other denominations and groups who have gotten away from the gospel of Christ and you see the exact same issues in these groups that are plaguing the UPC/Oneness movement.
Acts 2:38 is a great message but it is not the gospel. I truly would love to see everyone filled with the holy spirit and baptized in Jesus name but not at the expense of the gospel. The holiness movement, charismatics, word of faith, prosperity gospel, Oneness Pentecostals, Mormons, JW, all faced and are facing the consequences of not placing enough emphasis on the foundation of Jesus Christ and simplicity of the gospel. What happens is folks start to put their faith in something other than Christ.
It's not just a matter of discussing an issue or asking questions. Its the tone and the spirit in which its being "discussed". In case you havent noticed yet, there are some who always have a negative agenda whenever the UPC is being discussed. The negativity of their tone is so obvious that they couldnt hide it even if they tried. After a while that gets tiresome. Its the same "finger-pointing, blame the org, blame the doctine/blame the church culture/ the strict pastor, or blame whatever else" mentality.
Yes, we know no org is perfect, and discusssion of the issues within an org can be done in a constructive way and yeild some good. But the consistent hyper-critical, moaning, groaning, finger pointing and accusatory tone that some people always bring to the discussion is not productive at all. With some of these folks, all it is is another opportunity to "vent" once again against the organization they left... an organization which some of them clearly still have bad feelings about.
This mudslinging disguised as "discussion of the issues" becomes very transparent after a while.
Exactly.
In general, I have no problem with people discussing the UPCI in a negative light. In many cases, I'm very understanding because I have personal knowledge of where the person is coming from and what they have been through. Or perhaps I've experienced some of the same myself.
I'm not stupid. I know the UPC isn't perfect. And I'm definitely not a "stick your head in the sand" type of person.
But there is a huge difference between constructive criticism and/or seeking honest answers and just wanting some hot topic to gossip about and/or seeking to feed ones own personal grudge.
__________________
"The only thing worse than murder in the desert is to know where the water is and not tell it!"
My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. 
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