TRANSCRIPT Of Message By HANEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Fine, tell me what I misread then. I'm listening.

Yes, I understand that part. I know he wasnt talking about having a non-sprit filled church. Maybe you missed the central point I was trying to make.

This is the part I took issue with the most:

""Spirit filled" Christians have as many divorces as other Christians. They aren't anymore effective in witnessing than other Christians. They have the same retention problems as other Christians. etc, etc."

As one who grew up in that kind of enviornment, and had friends acquaintances, and family members who were deep in that type of environment, I take issue with the [unprovable] contentions that "we"
* have as many divorces, (I've heard this often, but where are the statistics? are there any? )
* arent any more effective in witnessing than they are, (interesting , since many/most of the non-spirit filled folks I knew didnt even witness)
* have the same retention problems as they do (every church has retention problems... but what statistics are there that say it's as much of a problem in Pentecostal churches as non-Pentecostal?)

My whole thing is, despite the problems in Pentecostal environments, we're nowhere near in as bad a shape as the non-spirit-filled church world. As one who's familiar with both worlds, I know it's not even close. I just don't think there's any need to paint an overly dramatic, extra-bleak picture of how things are.

I'm going by what I've seen with my own eyes.

My Apostolic friends have had as many divorces as my non-Apostolic friends. This is a fact in my situation!

I don't see Apostolic churches growing at larger rates than non-Apostolic churches. In fact, most of the "mega" churches in our area are non-Pentecostal!

The retention rate of Apostolic kids that I grew up with has been horrific! I can't imagine any other church organization being worse!

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

I'm going by what I've seen with my own eyes.

My Apostolic friends have had as many divorces as my non-Apostolic friends. This is a fact in my situation!

I don't see Apostolic churches growing at larger rates than non-Apostolic churches. In fact, most of the "mega" churches in our area are non-Pentecostal!

The retention rate of Apostolic kids that I grew up with has been horrific! I can't imagine any other church organization being worse!

Sad, but true.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

I'm going by what I've seen with my own eyes.

My Apostolic friends have had as many divorces as my non-Apostolic friends. This is a fact in my situation!

I don't see Apostolic churches growing at larger rates than non-Apostolic churches. In fact, most of the "mega" churches in our area are non-Pentecostal!

The retention rate of Apostolic kids that I grew up with has been horrific! I can't imagine any other church organization being worse!

My generation is the same. Of the kids I grew up with in the church only 2 out of 6 are still in the church. However, the last two generations are still at 80 to 90 % still in the church, so I see it getting better.

I don't bother to compare to the "mega" churches. They have a lot of "eye candy" that is irrelevant to salvation. Most around here advertise foyers complete with coffee shops, pastries, etc. all for sale. (seems I remember Jesus having a coniption about that one time)

It's like grandpa taught me, I can take a handful of hay that wont feed two cows and lead a 50 head herd anywhere I want them to go.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by scotty

My generation is the same. Of the kids I grew up with in the church only 2 out of 6 are still in the church. However, the last two generations are still at 80 to 90 % still in the church, so I see it getting better.

I don't bother to compare to the "mega" churches. They have a lot of "eye candy" that is irrelevant to salvation. Most around here advertise foyers complete with coffee shops, pastries, etc. all for sale. (seems I remember Jesus having a coniption about that one time)

It's like grandpa taught me, I can take a handful of hay that wont feed two cows and lead a 50 head herd anywhere I want them to go.

I don't think Jesus would have a conniption about a church serving coffee in the foyer - but if they charged $5.00 for a small cup, He probably would!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I don't think Jesus would have a conniption about a church serving coffee in the foyer - but if they charged $5.00 for a small cup, He probably would!

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I don't think Jesus would have a conniption about a church serving coffee in the foyer - but if they charged $5.00 for a small cup, He probably would!

I didn't say "serving" coffee Bro. I said coffee "shop". It was not a figure of speech. I'm serious. We have a local mega church that has a Starbucks coffee shop in the lobby/foyer that advertises as , coffee, breakfast, luch, dinner, wi fi, call in ahead and place your order.etc, etc.

This same church has "drive-thru" services for those who dont have time to attend a traditional church service.

Oh yeah, and in case anybody has plans to go by with their kids ? The indoor "tube house" playground will be closed through the holidays.


Yes , I'm afraid this is exactly the sort of thing Jesus would have a coniption over.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by scotty

I didn't say "serving" coffee Bro. I said coffee "shop". It was not a figure of speech. I'm serious. We have a local mega church that has a Starbucks coffee shop in the lobby/foyer that advertises as , coffee, breakfast, luch, dinner, wi fi, call in ahead and place your order.etc, etc.

This same church has "drive-thru" services for those who dont have time to attend a traditional church service.

Oh yeah, and in case anybody has plans to go by with their kids ? The indoor "tube house" playground will be closed through the holidays.


Yes , I'm afraid this is exactly the sort of thing Jesus would have a coniption over.

With the exception of the "drive thru" services, I have no objections to anything you've listed here.

What's wrong with having a cafe or a tube house in the church building? Shouldn't church be a place where families can assemble?

None of the things you mentioned are sinful, and most likely people are going to find these things somewhere - why not the church?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by scotty

I didn't say "serving" coffee Bro. I said coffee "shop". It was not a figure of speech. I'm serious. We have a local mega church that has a Starbucks coffee shop in the lobby/foyer that advertises as , coffee, breakfast, luch, dinner, wi fi, call in ahead and place your order.etc, etc.

This same church has "drive-thru" services for those who dont have time to attend a traditional church service.

Oh yeah, and in case anybody has plans to go by with their kids ? The indoor "tube house" playground will be closed through the holidays.


Yes , I'm afraid this is exactly the sort of thing Jesus would have a coniption over.

You know what?
I honestly don't think Jesus would have a conniption over that.
To me it's just another way of "having church."
(maybe I went to the Vineyard too long)

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

With the exception of the "drive thru" services, I have no objections to anything you've listed here.

What's wrong with having a cafe or a tube house in the church building? Shouldn't church be a place where families can assemble?

None of the things you mentioned are sinful, and most likely people are going to find these things somewhere - why not the church?

Originally Posted by Sam

You know what?
I honestly don't think Jesus would have a conniption over that.
To me it's just another way of "having church."
(maybe I went to the Vineyard too long)

So what exactly did Jesus throw out of the tabernacle ? What were they doing that got Him so angry ?

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by scotty

So what exactly did Jesus throw out of the tabernacle ? What were they doing that got Him so angry ?

Monopolizing the "sacrifice animal" market and over charging the congregants.