TRANSCRIPT Of Message By HANEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Fine, tell me what I misread then. I'm listening.

Yes, I understand that part. I know he wasnt talking about having a non-sprit filled church. Maybe you missed the central point I was trying to make.

This is the part I took issue with the most:

""Spirit filled" Christians have as many divorces as other Christians. They aren't anymore effective in witnessing than other Christians. They have the same retention problems as other Christians. etc, etc."

As one who grew up in that kind of enviornment, and had friends acquaintances, and family members who were deep in that type of environment, I take issue with the [unprovable] contentions that "we"
* have as many divorces, (I've heard this often, but where are the statistics? are there any? )
* arent any more effective in witnessing than they are, (interesting , since many/most of the non-spirit filled folks I knew didnt even witness)
* have the same retention problems as they do (every church has retention problems... but what statistics are there that say it's as much of a problem in Pentecostal churches as non-Pentecostal?)

My whole thing is, despite the problems in Pentecostal environments, we're nowhere near in as bad a shape as the non-spirit-filled church world. As one who's familiar with both worlds, I know it's not even close. I just don't think there's any need to paint an overly dramatic, extra-bleak picture of how things are.

I'm going by what I've seen with my own eyes.

My Apostolic friends have had as many divorces as my non-Apostolic friends. This is a fact in my situation!

I don't see Apostolic churches growing at larger rates than non-Apostolic churches. In fact, most of the "mega" churches in our area are non-Pentecostal!

The retention rate of Apostolic kids that I grew up with has been horrific! I can't imagine any other church organization being worse!

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

I'm going by what I've seen with my own eyes.

My Apostolic friends have had as many divorces as my non-Apostolic friends. This is a fact in my situation!

I don't see Apostolic churches growing at larger rates than non-Apostolic churches. In fact, most of the "mega" churches in our area are non-Pentecostal!

The retention rate of Apostolic kids that I grew up with has been horrific! I can't imagine any other church organization being worse!

Sad, but true.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

I'm going by what I've seen with my own eyes.

My Apostolic friends have had as many divorces as my non-Apostolic friends. This is a fact in my situation!

I don't see Apostolic churches growing at larger rates than non-Apostolic churches. In fact, most of the "mega" churches in our area are non-Pentecostal!

The retention rate of Apostolic kids that I grew up with has been horrific! I can't imagine any other church organization being worse!

My generation is the same. Of the kids I grew up with in the church only 2 out of 6 are still in the church. However, the last two generations are still at 80 to 90 % still in the church, so I see it getting better.

I don't bother to compare to the "mega" churches. They have a lot of "eye candy" that is irrelevant to salvation. Most around here advertise foyers complete with coffee shops, pastries, etc. all for sale. (seems I remember Jesus having a coniption about that one time)

It's like grandpa taught me, I can take a handful of hay that wont feed two cows and lead a 50 head herd anywhere I want them to go.

[Stephanas]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Bingo.

Some of these people actually make it sound like the UPC and similar "3-stepper" churches are putting a BURDEN on people by preaching the essentiality of receiving the Holy Ghost. How ironic.

If the UPCI were to end up becoming a watered-down Pentecostal denomination like the AoG one day, a lot of these same people would think of that as being "progress".... even if it meant only about 20-25% the new believers would be getting filled and baptized, as it now is in the AoG.

Totally absurd, in my view.

As I see it, maybe some of these folks should just go form their own watered-down churches if they want to emulate the AoG so bad -- and just leave the rest of us alone over here.

Statistics must be about the most malleable thing known to man, especially when used by partisan Pentecostals.

The AoG reported 450,340 "conversions" in 2006. That is a relatively meaningless number that undoubtedly includes everybody that said a prayer, attended a drama, or drove by a church on a hot Sunday when the church windows were propped open. (They are first cousins to Oneness Pentecostals)

Water baptisms more honestly reflect the number of "new believers." In 2006 the AoG reported 114,972 water baptisms.

In the same year (2006) the AoG reported 91,893 Spirit Baptisms.

That's more like 80% of new believers receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

I wonder what the "conversions"/Spirit Baptisms ratio is for Oneness Churches?

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Stephanas

Statistics must be about the most malleable thing known to man, especially when used by partisan Pentecostals.

The AoG reported 450,340 "conversions" in 2006. That is a relatively meaningless number that undoubtedly includes everybody that said a prayer, attended a drama, or drove by a church on a hot Sunday when the church windows were propped open. (They are first cousins to Oneness Pentecostals)

Water baptisms more honestly reflect the number of "new believers." In 2006 the AoG reported 114,972 water baptisms.

In the same year (2006) the AoG reported 91,893 Spirit Baptisms.

That's more like 80% of new believers receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

I wonder what the "conversions"/Spirit Baptisms ratio is for Oneness Churches?

Vinson Synan said that the rate was higher for OP's, somewhere in the high 90% for believers receiving the spirit. He would know, he is the leading scholar on Spirit Filled movements.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by scotty

My generation is the same. Of the kids I grew up with in the church only 2 out of 6 are still in the church. However, the last two generations are still at 80 to 90 % still in the church, so I see it getting better.

I don't bother to compare to the "mega" churches. They have a lot of "eye candy" that is irrelevant to salvation. Most around here advertise foyers complete with coffee shops, pastries, etc. all for sale. (seems I remember Jesus having a coniption about that one time)

It's like grandpa taught me, I can take a handful of hay that wont feed two cows and lead a 50 head herd anywhere I want them to go.

I don't think Jesus would have a conniption about a church serving coffee in the foyer - but if they charged $5.00 for a small cup, He probably would!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Stephanas

Statistics must be about the most malleable thing known to man, especially when used by partisan Pentecostals.

The AoG reported 450,340 "conversions" in 2006. That is a relatively meaningless number that undoubtedly includes everybody that said a prayer, attended a drama, or drove by a church on a hot Sunday when the church windows were propped open. (They are first cousins to Oneness Pentecostals)

So true!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I don't think Jesus would have a conniption about a church serving coffee in the foyer - but if they charged $5.00 for a small cup, He probably would!

[Stephanas]

Originally Posted by Pastor Keith

Vinson Synan said that the rate was higher for OP's, somewhere in the high 90% for believers receiving the spirit. He would know, he is the leading scholar on Spirit Filled movements.

Where did he get the statistics that he based his conclusions on?

I'd like to see numbers that were even close enough to be the shadow of accurate statistics on the Oneness movement.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Truthhurts

I have a quick question if it is a promise or free gift only.....why are so many rejecting it. I want everything I can get from God myself.

If it is a promise why is God keeping it from so many............Just a question....truthhurts

I am NOT a three-stepper. A believe entirely that one is saved from the moment they repent and ASK God to "save them" (although I still believe in baptism and its importance)......

...but this is a very good point!

Unless all we're talking about is the "tongues" part of it.