You won't ever get any here. "Apostolics" of this day and age simply clench their eyes tightly shut and play a game of "Just Pretend..."
For some reason they are completely sold on the teachings of Fundamentalist Baptists in this area of thought - but they'll send those same Baptists to hell at the drop of a hat. It makes no sense... but then again, I guess that was your point.
Here's a test for our literal Scientific Creationists friends and supporters of ICR. It's often stated that before the Fall there wasn't any death or aging. Here's the question:
How is it that Adam would have never aged or died?
(Trust me, this ties into the question because this is an important detail that must be covered.)
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Originally Posted by Aquila
No takers? lol
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Originally Posted by pelathais
You won't ever get any here.
Then someone has to answer for them! It's only fair. I'd take a stab, but, sadly, my imagination is on the blink, today. I got nothin'.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
You won't ever get any here. "Apostolics" of this day and age simply clench their eyes tightly shut and play a game of "Just Pretend..."
For some reason they are completely sold on the teachings of Fundamentalist Baptists in this area of thought - but they'll send those same Baptists to hell at the drop of a hat. It makes no sense... but then again, I guess that was your point.
Sure. I was just "pretending" the other day when Hannah and I were studying cells and DNA and all the related tangents. We studied in great depth for a couple of weeks, created models, studied how DNA strands unzip, zip, etc. etc., and we found NOTHING that supports evolution, and quite a bit that directly contradicts it. We didn't close our eyes to ANYthing. I am not afraid to read articles that support evolution. I just find it hilarious that none of them have any real facts to offer--just the opinions of the author viewing the evidence through the evolution-colored glasses allowing for no other conclusions' validity. THAT is playing a game of "just pretend." Just pretend God doesn't exist. Just pretend it isn't possible. Just pretend we know what we're talking about. Just pretend that the emperor is wearing clothes.
I'm not sold on the teachings of Fundamentalist Baptists--I'm sold on truth. Whatsoever is true, that is what I'll think on. If something contradicts God's Word, it's simply not true. That isn't pretending, pel. That's putting my trust where it belongs. The world, its philosophies and its knowledge still doesn't have all the answers. When I don't have an answer, I look to scripture. I don't read National Geographic and take everything at face value. But I do take God's Word at face value.
I guess if you don't accept God's Word as infallible, absolute and irrefutable, it causes a problem with reasoning from the get-go.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
Sure. I was just "pretending" the other day when Hannah and I were studying cells and DNA and all the related tangents. We studied in great depth for a couple of weeks, created models, studied how DNA strands unzip, zip, etc. etc., and we found NOTHING that supports evolution, and quite a bit that directly contradicts it. We didn't close our eyes to ANYthing. I am not afraid to read articles that support evolution. I just find it hilarious that none of them have any real facts to offer--just the opinions of the author viewing the evidence through the evolution-colored glasses allowing for no other conclusions' validity. THAT is playing a game of "just pretend." Just pretend God doesn't exist. Just pretend it isn't possible. Just pretend we know what we're talking about. Just pretend that the emperor is wearing clothes.
You didn't notice that Hannah had DNA that unmistakenly identified her as a descendant of yours? And that your DNA unmistakenly identified you as a descendant of your parents? And so on... until we look at Hannah's DNA and that of a chimpanzee and find that she and the chimp have the same unmistakable markers showing a common descent - the same kinds of pattern that shows she's your daughter shows she (and you and I) and chimpanzees are descended from the same parents.
And how do you get "evolution = no God"?
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Originally Posted by MissBrattified
I'm not sold on the teachings of Fundamentalist Baptists--I'm sold on truth. Whatsoever is true, that is what I'll think on. If something contradicts God's Word, it's simply not true. That isn't pretending, pel. That's putting my trust where it belongs. The world, its philosophies and its knowledge still doesn't have all the answers. When I don't have an answer, I look to scripture. I don't read National Geographic and take everything at face value. But I do take God's Word at face value.
I guess if you don't accept God's Word as infallible, absolute and irrefutable, it causes a problem with reasoning from the get-go.
With all due respect, to insist upon a worldview that simply isn't real and then to blame that view upon a 200 year old tradition of Bible Fundamentalism and accuse everyone who disagrees with you of impiety isn't just unfair - it's frankly delusional.
Every geneticist who looks at the same DNA molecules that you say you've looked at "sees" biological evolution and sees the DNA as unmistakable proof of this fact. And they do so at some personal risk - but there it is.
You didn't notice that Hannah had DNA that unmistakenly identified her as a descendant of yours? And that your DNA unmistakenly identified you as a descendant of your parents? And so on...
What? What about my previous post would make you think I DIDN'T get those facts? LOL!!!!! Of course I get that.
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...until we look at Hannah's DNA and that of a chimpanzee and find that she and the chimp have the same unmistakable markers showing a common descent - the same kinds of pattern that shows she's your daughter shows she (and you and I) and chimpanzees are descended from the same parents.
Similar patterns do not show common descent necessarily.
Do you know how patently impossible it is for a species with 23 pairs of chromosomes to mutate or evolve from a species with 24? More importantly, do you have any data that supports any process similar to this miraculous claim being reproduced in a lab?
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And how do you get "evolution = no God"?
I never said that evolution=no God. I believe that evolution=a stupid theory that scientists have just accepted as true and go about all their research with that in mind. It creates a skewed result. Objectivity is good. Of course, I am not objective, because I view everything through the glass that God created the world.
I do believe that some evolutionary theories are false simply on the basis that they contradict scripture. It is possible to skew facts in such a way to support evolution, and in such a way that they contradict scripture, but if those facts were lined out simply and logically, they would do neither.
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With all due respect, to insist upon a worldview that simply isn't real and then to blame that view upon a 200 year old tradition of Bible Fundamentalism and accuse everyone who disagrees with you of impiety isn't just unfair - it's frankly delusional.
I'm not delusional. Did I blame a view on a 200 year old tradition of Bible Fundamentalism, or did you do that? You realize that evolution is a relatively new concept, too, right?
And I didn't accuse anyone of impiety. I'm saying that if you don't accept scripture at face value, and I do, then our views can't help but be different, as well as our line of reasoning. Much like speaking to someone who doesn't believe in God. Unless you start with faith in a divinity at the very least, there is no good foundation for discussion.
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Every geneticist who looks at the same DNA molecules that you say you've looked at "sees" biological evolution and sees the DNA as unmistakable proof of this fact. And they do so at some personal risk - but there it is.
Pelathais...tsk, tsk, tsk. Your first statement alone is unscientific in nature. It's known as a "universal negative." You cannot equivocally state that "every geneticist" does anything of the sort, because you simply have not read the studies of, nor observed or made contact with every geneticist.
How is the existence of DNA, which is basically just a set of instructions for each organism, "unmistakable proof" of the "fact" of biological evolution?
And there is NO personal risk for geneticists to support evolution. The personal risk is there for those who reject it.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
"... by evolutionists themselves..." That's because "Creationists" have failed to contribute anything meaningful to the scientific discussion. And at the end of the article you cite - we still find scientists whose understanding of genetics leads them to conclude that chimpanzees and human beings are rather closely related and that they most certainly do share a common ancestor.
So, your link to AIG actually proves my point.
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Originally Posted by MissBrattified
Do you know how patently impossible it is for a species with 23 pairs of chromosomes to mutate or evolve from a species with 24? More importantly, do you have any data that supports any process similar to this miraculous claim being reproduced in a lab?
You are question framing here, apparently assuming humans evolved from chimpanzees. No one but Creationists make this assertion.
There are two main ways in which chromosome number have been observed to change during speciation - polyploidy and chromosome fusion. The result is either more or in the case of fusion, fewer chomosomes in the descendants.
The primary difference genetically between humans and chimps is a case of chromosomal fusion that took place somewhere along the hominid line. The result is that we have fewer chromosomes than our nearest "cousins."
As far as "in the lab" here's a short list:
Speciations Involving Polyploidy, Hybridization or Hybridization Followed by Polyploidization.
Plants
Evening Primrose (Oenothera gigas)
Kew Primrose (Primula kewensis)
Tragopogon
Raphanobrassica
Hemp Nettle (Galeopsis tetrahit)
Animals
Housefly
Apple Maggot Fly
Gall Former Fly (Eurosta solidaginis)
Flour Beetles (Tribolium castaneum)
Lab Rat Worm, Nereis acuminata ... details are here.
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Originally Posted by MissBrattified
I never said that evolution=no God. I believe that evolution=a stupid theory that scientists have just accepted as true and go about all their research with that in mind. It creates a skewed result. Objectivity is good. Of course, I am not objective, because I view everything through the glass that God created the world.
I do believe that some evolutionary theories are false simply on the basis that they contradict scripture. It is possible to skew facts in such a way to support evolution, and in such a way that they contradict scripture, but if those facts were lined out simply and logically, they would do neither.
When you said: "THAT is playing a game of "just pretend." Just pretend God doesn't exist. Just pretend it isn't possible," you equated evolution with atheism.
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Originally Posted by MissBrattified
I'm not delusional. Did I blame a view on a 200 year old tradition of Bible Fundamentalism, or did you do that? You realize that evolution is a relatively new concept, too, right?
Natural Selection as an explanation for evolution is relatively recent. Evolution itself in one way or another actually goes back to the ancient Greeks.
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Originally Posted by MissBrattified
And I didn't accuse anyone of impiety. I'm saying that if you don't accept scripture at face value, and I do, then our views can't help but be different, as well as our line of reasoning. Much like speaking to someone who doesn't believe in God. Unless you start with faith in a divinity at the very least, there is no good foundation for discussion.
So again, you make the mistake of equating evolution with atheism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified
Pelathais...tsk, tsk, tsk. Your first statement alone is unscientific in nature. It's known as a "universal negative." You cannot equivocally state that "every geneticist" does anything of the sort, because you simply have not read the studies of, nor observed or made contact with every geneticist.
I did generalize. However, the statement, though a generalization, does stand on its own merits. Hannah will not be able to continue her study of genetics past the secondary level without the tutelage of an evolutionary biologist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified
How is the existence of DNA, which is basically just a set of instructions for each organism, "unmistakable proof" of the "fact" of biological evolution?
The DNA is a template for making proteins. When we take a step back and view an organism's genome as a set of instructions for the organism's development we see the differing degrees of relatedness and unrelatedness among the organisms on our planet. We see that all known organisms share a common descent from a common ancestor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified
And there is NO personal risk for geneticists to support evolution. The personal risk is there for those who reject it.
People are shut out of their churches even today because they accept scientific conclusions to explain the natural world. My own experience follows this pattern.
I believe that evolution=a stupid theory that scientists have just accepted as true and go about all their research with that in mind. It creates a skewed result. Objectivity is good. Of course, I am not objective, because I view everything through the glass that God created the world. 
Hybrid Mode
