This Is Why We Get a Bad Rap!!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

It's not entirely garbage. Some of the more conservative churches turn out the wildest teenagers, and some very immoral grownups, who do anything at all when they're on vacation, and out of the pastor's watchful eye.

That's a whole new thread, regarding living by principle, rather than the letter of the law.

That's a silly statement, Abigail. As I stated before, having not been raised in the UPC, I had friends in various denominations making the same mistakes - teenagers and adults. It's an unfounded broadbrush statement, IMO.

It is nothing more than and only as simple as - those that choose to walk after the flesh and not the Spirit. For those that choose to walk carnal, there were and are many that choose to walk after the Spirit. That's a fact that cannot be denied, IMO.

Many other teenagers that go away to college, from other denominations, sow their wild oats - just as much as a Bible college kid would.
They have simply lived a religion, just like any other child, and have to find God for themselves at some point in their life. It can't get any more simple.

Living in a Holy Ghost filled home is no guarantee. It's a personal choice to be made.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

That's a silly statement, Abigail. As I stated before, having not been raised in the UPC, I had friends in various denominations making the same mistakes - teenagers and adults. It's an unfounded broadbrush statement, IMO.

It is nothing more than and only as simple as - those that choose to walk after the flesh and not the Spirit. For those that choose to walk carnal, there were and are many that choose to walk after the Spirit. That's a fact that cannot be denied, IMO.

Many other teenagers that go away to college, from other denominations, sow their wild oats - just as much as a Bible college kid would.
They have simply lived a religion, just like any other child, and have to find God for themselves at some point in their life. It can't get any more simple.

Living in a Holy Ghost filled home is no guarantee. It's a personal choice to be made.

It is a broadbrush, I'll concede to that, but it's not unfounded. I did grow up in the UPCI, and we fellowshipped often with conservative, Independent churches.

I agree that many kids sow their wild oats--obviously. But those who are sent off on their own without having had a moral compass instilled seem to do far worse. When they're good, they're very, very good, but when they're bad, they're horrid.

Obviously every person makes their own choices, but there are some church cultures that contribute to bad decision making skills because the emphasis is on obey the pastor, and rarely on developing personal convictions and applying biblical principles to an entire lifestyle.

There are SOME people who leave the UPCI, and once they are without the "trappings", they are as lost as a goose in a snowstorm. Since wearing pants is given a sin value as equal to that of adultery or theft or murder, suddenly nothing is off limits, and the ability to discern between right and wrong is lost. I had a friend of mine who told me that when she cut her hair the first time, and put on a pair of jeans that suddenly everything seemed "okay." That is not an isolated event. Man-imposed restrictions being equated with God-imposed commandments leads to a confusion that is blinding and deadly to many.

Now you know that I am a supporter of biblical authority, and I believe pastors should preach what they believe is right and necessary. I have no bone to pick with the UPC in general--I'm part of it. What I mentioned referred more to kids I've seen out of Independent and conservative trinitarian churches, rather than the UPC. However, I've seen it in the UPC and ALJC as well. Truth be told, it can probably occur in any extreme faction of a religion. Kids rebel against it all--not just the unbiblical junk.

And now I'm rambling, I've lost track of my point, so end of post.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

It is a broadbrush, I'll concede to that, but it's not unfounded. I did grow up in the UPCI, and we fellowshipped often with conservative, Independent churches.

I agree that many kids sow their wild oats--obviously. But those who are sent off on their own without having had a moral compass instilled seem to do far worse. When they're good, they're very, very good, but when they're bad, they're horrid.

Obviously every person makes their own choices, but there are some church cultures that contribute to bad decision making skills because the emphasis is on obey the pastor, and rarely on developing personal convictions and applying biblical principles to an entire lifestyle.

There are SOME people who leave the UPCI, and once they are without the "trappings", they are as lost as a goose in a snowstorm. Since wearing pants is given a sin value as equal to that of adultery or theft or murder, suddenly nothing is off limits, and the ability to discern between right and wrong is lost. I had a friend of mine who told me that when she cut her hair the first time, and put on a pair of jeans that suddenly everything seemed "okay." That is not an isolated event. Man-imposed restrictions being equated with God-imposed commandments leads to a confusion that is blinding and deadly to many.

Now you know that I am a supporter of biblical authority, and I believe pastors should preach what they believe is right and necessary. I have no bone to pick with the UPC in general--I'm part of it. What I mentioned referred more to kids I've seen out of Independent and conservative trinitarian churches, rather than the UPC. However, I've seen it in the UPC and ALJC as well. Truth be told, it can probably occur in any extreme faction of a religion. Kids rebel against it all--not just the unbiblical junk.

And now I'm rambling, I've lost track of my point, so end of post.

I agree with you to a degree, but not totally. Let me focus on this quote you made:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I agree that many kids sow their wild oats--obviously. But those who are sent off on their own without having had a moral compass instilled seem to do far worse. When they're good, they're very, very good, but when they're bad, they're horrid.

I was this person, after moving miles away from home, and landing in Houston, Texas. We were raised with a good moral compass, but no way as strict as a conservative apostolic/pentecostal church, yet.....the country mouse had come to town!

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I agree with you to a degree, but not totally. Let me focus on this quote you made:

I was this person, after moving miles away from home, and landing in Houston, Texas. We were raised with a good moral compass, but no way as strict as a conservative apostolic/pentecostal church, yet.....the country mouse had come to town!

So you had a good moral compass and chose to be bad anyway.

*shrug* Been there myself.

The point I'm trying to get to is that since little things are given the same "sin value" (for lack of a better term), then when you do a little thing, you think that you might as well do it all--since you're already going to have to repent on Sunday AM. That's the mindset I'm talking about. There's no independent interpretation of what is right and wrong, based on a personal set of morals. Everything is interpreted through the lens of "will I get caught?" rather than "does this please God?"

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

So you had a good moral compass and chose to be bad anyway.

*shrug* Been there myself.

Sure! Not one was watching me and I was miles from home!

I will back up and say that I do agree with you on people being taught to live for the pastor and follow him, almost, without personal convictions. I was in that type of environment as a new convert at age 26. Nevertheless, I talked to God and He, alone, forged my path and put convictions in my heart. So, I can only blame an individual for resting on the hopes of a man. Perhaps, to be kind to some that have experienced that, I'm very sure it is my personality to not put my faith in a man alone.

My husband told me last night that he knew I didn't love him when I married him. I didn't know, all these years, that he knew that. We've come a long way!! I love him and trust him now! He asked me why I married him. I said, "Because I thought that I needed to take care of you."

So, long story short - it wouldn't be me to put all of my trust in a man - ever. Just my journey and observations along the way.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Sure! Not one was watching me and I was miles from home!

I will back up and say that I do agree with you on people being taught to live for the pastor and follow him, almost, without personal convictions. I was in that type of environment as a new convert at age 26. Nevertheless, I talked to God and He, alone, forged my path and put convictions in my heart. So, I can only blame an individual for resting on the hopes of a man. Perhaps, to be kind to some that have experienced that, I'm very sure it is my personality to not put my faith in a man alone.

My husband told me last night that he knew I didn't love him when I married him. I didn't know, all these years, that he knew that. We've come a long way!! I love him and trust him now! He asked me why I married him. I said, "Because I thought that I needed to take care of you."

So, long story short - it wouldn't be me to put all of my trust in a man - ever. Just my journey and observations along the way.

PO Rocks.

You can NEVER FIND a GOLDSTAR emoticon when you need one!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by tbpew

PO Rocks.

You can NEVER FIND a GOLDSTAR emoticon when you need one!

That is the highest compliment coming from you, tbpew!

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

The point I'm trying to get to is that since little things are given the same "sin value" (for lack of a better term), then when you do a little thing, you think that you might as well do it all--since you're already going to have to repent on Sunday AM. That's the mindset I'm talking about. There's no independent interpretation of what is right and wrong, based on a personal set of morals. Everything is interpreted through the lens of "will I get caught?" rather than "does this please God?"

This is EXACTLY right. You will go to hell for wearing short sleeves (no joke) so you might as well have fun going down. If you're going to hell anyway, why stop with short sleeves. This really is a mindset some have. I've SEEN it.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

The point I'm trying to get to is that since little things are given the same "sin value" (for lack of a better term), then when you do a little thing, you think that you might as well do it all--since you're already going to have to repent on Sunday AM. That's the mindset I'm talking about. There's no independent interpretation of what is right and wrong, based on a personal set of morals. Everything is interpreted through the lens of "will I get caught?" rather than "does this please God?"

Missed this before.

I have seen this EXACT behavior and much better explains what I was trying to say earlier.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

So you had a good moral compass and chose to be bad anyway.

*shrug* Been there myself.

The point I'm trying to get to is that since little things are given the same "sin value" (for lack of a better term), then when you do a little thing, you think that you might as well do it all--since you're already going to have to repent on Sunday AM. That's the mindset I'm talking about. There's no independent interpretation of what is right and wrong, based on a personal set of morals. Everything is interpreted through the lens of "will I get caught?" rather than "does this please God?"

Abigail,
You added this last part to your post after I moved on, so I want to address this.

Again, I think it is the heart of the individual. I think the Catholic Church focuses on, at least ours did, repentance almost as much as the Pentecostal church does. During every service you had the confessionals on the side aisle, always reminding you. You knew you had to repent before you could take Communion.

BUT, I never at any time had the mindset that I could do whatever because I could repent later. There were some things that people could not talk me into doing. Even, if you please, standing around in a black string bikini, no one was going to make me participate with them or with some things they were involved in. I'm using that example because if you are halfway naked, what's next? "Nothing, so forget it, Budro!" lol!

I never said, "Well, I've come this far, I might as well go all the way."

Once we had been drinking and smoking a little and ended up at a stranger's apartment. I did not know these guys. My friend wanted to go with them because they were driving a limo. I was sitting on the couch assessing the situation and presently stood up and yelled, "I WANT TO GO HOME! TAKE ME TO MY CAR!!!"

So, no, I don't think that goes for every individual. I think, again, it's an individual thing, IMO. I believe we are taking some of this way too far, on both ends of the spectrum.

Someone writes a blog and cusses, so all ex-UPCers are idiots OR this UPC guy is control a freak and a thief, so all UPC ministers are idiots. Not so and we know it!