You Be The Judge: Anderson Vs Burk

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by ChTatum

Bro. Blume, I also appreciate your posts. Thanks for taking the time.

You're welcome, brother.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

Acts 1:9-11
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

More food for thought.

Here you go...

Originally Posted by TK Burk

In Acts 1, angels told 500 disciples that the way they saw Jesus ascend into to heaven would be the same “manner” in which they would see Him come again. Consequently, some men teach this passage refers to a literal physical return of Jesus to the earth. But when we examine this verse, we find its emphasis is not on Jesus’ physical body, but on the “manner” in which He ascended. Let’s begin by looking the wording of the occurrence as recorded in the following verses:

Acts 1:9-11
(9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and A CLOUD received him out of their sight.
(10) And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
(11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The Bible does not waste words. When it expressly mentions an item or an issue, it usually does so to emphasis a deeper understanding found in the text. Luke emphasizes a “cloud” receiving Jesus, and Jesus coming again in “like manner.” The Bible always interprets itself. So, when a person understands how “clouds” are used in the Old Testament, they will understand how they are to be understood in Jesus’ coming. When looking at the Old Testament we find the prophetic imagery for clouds always is associated with God’s “POWER” and “GLORY.”

IMAGERY, TYPE AND SHADOW, AND SYMBOLISM

The Bible is filled with symbolism. The writers of the Old Testament spoke in language intent on filling their audience with a visual images, which were to be fulfilled by their then coming Messiah. They spoke of symbolisms such as lambs and wolves, sacrificed animals and Levitical priests, unmolded clay and potter’s wheels, mountain tops and deep valleys, and days of rest and days of war. These, like all others, were intended to convey various images of Jesus and His Kingdom.

Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English defines “symbol” as: (1) The sign or representation of any moral thing by the images or properties of natural things. Thus the lion is the symbol of courage; the lamb is the symbol of meekness or patience. Symbols are of various kinds, as types, enigmas, parables, fables, allegories, emblems, hieroglyphics, &c. (2) An emblem or representation of something else. Thus in the eucharist, the bread and wine are called symbols of the body and blood of Christ.

John the Baptist referenced such symbolism when he said, “…Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). His statement referred to the imagery found in Isaiah’s prophecy: “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth” (Isaiah 53:7). Isaiah spoke of the shadow and John spoke of the substance. Together we have a better understand of Jesus’ work for mankind.

The way in which imagery is used in the Old Testament sets the precedent in which it is to be used in the New Testament. This thereby gives us a clear understanding of both what was foretold and its fulfillment. So, the subject of Jesus coming in a cloud is easily understood by studying the usage of the imagery of clouds in the Bible. With this in mind, let’s now look at how clouds were first used in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets.

CLOUDS REPRESENT GOD’S POWER

These scriptures describe God coming in a “CLOUD” to bring judgment against those in rebellion to Him.

Isaiah 19:1
Jeremiah 4:13
Ezekiel 30:3
Ezekiel 30:18-19

These do not speak of actual clouds, but instead of God acting in POWER to deliver His judgment! Also notice that each of these has God using a heathen army for His sword of wrath. The importance of this will be clearer when we later look into what “coming” Luke was referring to in Acts 1.

CLOUDS REPRESENT GOD’S GLORY

These verses use “CLOUDS” as imagery of God’s GLORY.

Nahum 1:2
Zephaniah 1:14-17
Joel 2:1-9

These were not to be understood as “literal” clouds. The mention of these clouds was to give the reader a visual picture of God’s glory. This is the same ‘glory’ Joshua experienced while remaining in the Tabernacle of God.

Exodus 33:10-11

Did Joshua stand in the Tabernacle in a LITERAL cloud? What does this CLOUD represent? Was it just a puffy gaseous formation, or something more?

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible – Exodus 33:9
The cloudy pillar descended - This very circumstance precluded the possibility of deception. The cloud descending at these times, and at none others, was a full proof that it was miraculous, and a pledge of the Divine presence. It was beyond the power of human art to counterfeit such an appearance; and let it be observed that all the people saw this, Exo 33:10. How many indubitable and irrefragable proofs of its own authenticity and Divine origin does the Pentateuch contain!

When seeing this cloud the people took it as seeing a manifestation of God’s glory.

From these Old Testament examples we see that a reader of the Bible would already understand that the imagery of clouds refer to God’s glory and His coming judgment against the enemies of His people. Now let’s look at how the New Testament uses “clouds.”

Part 1 of 2

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

Acts 1:9-11
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

More food for thought.

And a bit more...

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Part 2 of 2



CLOUDS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

The New Testament is filled with its writers explaining how the Old Testament’s types and shadows were fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Here is an example:

Colossians 2:16-17
(See also Heb 8:5, Heb 9:9, 11, 23, Heb 10:1)

One example of this is how Joshua’s “cloud” (Ex 33:9-11) is reminiscent of the cloud mentioned in the Mount of Transformation.

Matthew 17:3-5

Without doubt, Peter, James, and John would have been familiar with the prophetic imagery of a “cloud.” Consequently, they were not in a fog as to what this visitation implied. With this knowledge, it is understandable why Peter was so stirred and why Jesus did not want them to tell of this occurrence until after His crucifixion (See also Mark 9:7; Luke 9:34, 35).

JESUS COMING IN THE CLOUDS

If you’ve ever preached or heard someone preach a message on biblical imagery, types and shadows, or symbolism, then there’s nothing difficult about understanding what the Bible means concerning ‘Jesus’ coming in the clouds.’

The entire Old Testament foretold of Jesus. The New Testament tells us that He fulfilled all that was written of Him. So if the Old Testament uses CLOUDS in the manner we’ve shown, why shouldn’t this same meaning be used in reference to Jesus’ coming? Let’s look now at verse where Jesus is using such imagery for His coming.

Mark 14:62

Now, we know that there is only One God. Therefore, Jesus’ could not have literally meant He would someday be “sitting” on a literal “right hand” of another deity. Since this is the case, Jesus’ statement to the High Priest must be seen as biblical imagery. Both the Old and New Testament uses “right hand” as imagery of ‘power’ and ‘special status’ (See Gen 48:13-18; Exo 15:6, 12; 29:20; Deu 33:2; 1Ki 2:19; 22:19; 1Ch 6:39; 2Ch 18:18; Psa 16:8, 11; 17:7; 18:35; 20:6; 21:8; 44:3; 45:4, 9; 48:10; 60:5; 63:8; 73:23; 74:11; 77:10; 78:54; 80:15, 17; 89:13, 25, 42; 91:7; 98:1; 108:6; 109:6, 31; 110:1, 5; 118:15, 16; 121:5; 138:7; 139:10; Ecc 10:2; Isa 41:10, 13; 45:1; 48:13; 54:3; 62:8; 63:12; Jer 22:24; Lam 2:3, 4; Dan 12:7; Hab 2:16; Zec 3:1; Mat 20:21, 23; 22:44; 25:33, 34; 26:64; 27:29, Mark 10:37, 40; 12:36; 14:62; 16:19; Luke 20:42; 22:69; Acts 2:25, 33, 34; 5:31; 7:55, 56; Rom 8:34; Eph 1:20; Col 3:1; Heb 1:3, 13; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1Pe 3:22; Rev 1:16, 20; 2:1; 5:1, 7; 13:16).

This “right hand” imagery is easily seen in the following verses:

Psalms 110:1
Matthew 22:42-46

“The LORD (God) said to my Lord (Messiah)….” This is a prophecy that foretold of the exaltation of Jesus Christ. To be placed at the right hand of a king was to be placed at the status of the King’s favor and power. This being said of Jesus placed Him in that respective position (See Mar 16:19; Act 7:55; Rom 8:34; Eph 1:20; Heb 1:3, 8:1, 10:12).

As a result, if Jesus’ statement about “right hand” in Mark 14:62 is biblical imagery, then He also must have also used biblical imagery about Him “coming in clouds.” If we use the already established symbolic language for “clouds” from the Old Testament, we see Jesus was saying that He was “coming” in God’s “judgment” and “glory.” The following are other New Testament prophecies that speak of this same type coming of Jesus Christ.

Luke 21:27
Matthew 24:30
Matthew 26:64
Mark 13:26

The “Son of man” is a synonym for Jesus Christ. In the above verses, we find Jesus’ coming in “clouds” is aligned with “power” and “glory.” Such a coming did occur in AD70, which was a time when Jesus was prophesied to come to bring judgment against Jerusalem and her Temple. During that time, Jesus did come in the POWER of God. This coming fulfilled many prophecies about a “soon coming” judgment that was to happen in the same generation that saw Jesus crucified. This fulfillment taking place exactly as foretold by the prophets, apostles, and Jesus Christ did show the world God’s GLORY.

The Book of Revelation is John’s detailed view of this same AD70 coming and judgment. In his writings we also find similar language about Jesus’ coming in a “cloud.”

Revelation 1:7
Revelation 14:16, 19

These passages both refer to occurrences that took place during Jesus’ judgment against those in rebellion to His kingdom. This was to come to pass during a time while those who “pierced” (crucified) Jesus were still alive. Jesus was killed in AD30. A biblical generation is 40 years. When you add the AD30 and 40 years together you get AD70. That time would see both a harvest (resurrection) of Jesus’ saints and a crushing of those rebellious against Him and His Church. All of this came to pass—in detail—in AD70.

Jesus’ AD70 judgment was done through the Roman Armies of General Titus. God used that army as His own sword of vengeance. This is exactly the same thing He did in the accounts of Him coming in the CLOUDS against His afore mentioned Old Testament enemies.

Though there are numerous studies and charts claiming Acts 1:9-11 emphasizes a physical coming of Jesus Christ on a day sometime at the “end of the world,” nowhere do we find this taught in the Bible. What we do find is a harmonious agreement that “clouds” are both prophetic imagery speaking of God’s “glory” and “judgment,” and that the “clouds” and Jesus’ coming “in like ‘manner’ as they saw Him go,” foretold of His JUDGMENT and GLORY during the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

My friend though we have never agreed on this subject you have always been fair. But this is NOT fair. All my resource material is in storage how can I cite what I do not have in front of me? That is NOT a dodge I am being honest. However Elder Andersen is citing sources and I recomended Elder Chalfant's writings on the subject concerning the dating of Revelation and you chide me? You know perfectly well I would NOT sign a blank signature on everything anyone would write.

We agree on much, brother, but note:

Here is the issue. Even when I spoke with you in the past, and answered you using info I already wrote up in a FAQ section of my website, you jeered at it saying you would rather have me directly respond to you and not resort to that which I already wrote. You claimed pre-written material was a cop-out, since you wanted to have our on-the-spot opinions that are none other than direct responses to your words and questions, alone. So when you claim you cannot answer now due to your material being in storage, then you do not have on-the-spot answers to our questions and words. So it appears like you demand something from others that you did not supply yourself. It is as though you are doing the same thing to people's responses that you criticized others for doing to your responses.

It appears you do the same thing you laughed at us about when you cannot respond without pulling our pre-written material. It really is the same thing, bro. Leave the material in storage, and give us your understanding of the issues at hand.

[shag]

Bro. Blume, do U see "every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him.......", as not literally seeing him w/ a physical eye in that verse, but rather seeing him thru the eyes of understanding, as in Eph. 1:18?

[mfblume]

Also note:

Matthew 24:30 KJV And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This does not mean the sign IS seeing the Son positioned in heaven, so that people see Him in the sky in this instance. It means the Son of man is in Heaven, and there is a sign to indicate that.

Being in heavn is being where people on earth cannot see without a supernatural vision, like Stephen had.

Jesus went TO HEAVEN's throne as follows:

Daniel 7:13 KJV I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

He came with clouds, but in the reverse direction people think it means in Matthew 24. He came with clouds not to earth, but INTO HEAVEN to the throne where the ancient of days sat. Rev 5 shows the same thing but with Christ as a Lamb going to the throne. And there is a SIGN that would be given that He is IN HEAVEN, sitting at the throne, which implies HE WAS RIGHT, AFTER ALL, about all He said.

It is a sign. And a sign He is in Heaven. The sign, itself, is not Him in the sky. It is a sign that he is in heaven. SIGNS represent things. When you see a sign for a city, you know the city is not the sign, itself. The sign of the Son of man being in Heaven was the destruction of the city.

In Mark 13 and Luke 21 the disciples wondered about the SIGN WHEN THE TEMPLE WOULD BE DESTROYED.

Mark 13:4 KJV Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Luke 21:7 KJV And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shag

Bro. Blume, do U see "every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him.......", as not literally seeing him w/ a physical eye in that verse, but rather seeing him thru the eyes of understanding, as in Eph. 1:18?

Correct. And the emphasis being upon those who pierced Him as the kicker. Those who pierced Him are not the RACE of Israel or Jews, because Jew is not a race. It is a religious adherent to Judaism, alone. This proves the event would occur in the days of THAT generation when those who killed Him were still alive.

I think it is racist to say this refers to Jews of any generation since then, as though the descendants are judged for their father's sins, when Ezekiel 18 said that would not occur in Israel.

Ezekiel 18:2-4 KJV What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. (4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

[mfblume]

Shag, Adam Clarke agreed!

Rev 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds - This relates to his coming to execute judgment on the enemies of his religion; perhaps to his coming to destroy Jerusalem, as he was to be particularly manifested to them that pierced him, which must mean the incredulous and rebellious Jews.

And all kindreds of the earth - Πασαι αἱ φυλαι της γης· All the tribes of the land. By this the Jewish people are most evidently intended, and therefore the whole verse may be understood as predicting the destruction of the Jews; and is a presumptive proof that the Apocalypse was written before the final overthrow of the Jewish state.

Even so, Amen - Ναι, αμην· Yea, Amen. It is true, so be it. Our Lord will come and execute judgment on the Jews and Gentiles. This the Jews and Romans particularly felt.

Some folks can just say things so well.

But I believe this shall yet occur quite visibly:

Acts 1:9-11
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

[shag]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Correct. And the emphasis being upon those who pierced Him as the kicker. Those who pierced Him are not the RACE of Israel or Jews, because Jew is not a race. It is a religious adherent to Judaism, alone. This proves the event would occur in the days of THAT generation when those who killed Him were still alive.

I think it is racist to say this refers to Jews of any generation since then, as though the descendants are judged for their father's sins, when Ezekiel 18 said that would not occur in Israel.

Ezekiel 18:2-4 KJV What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. (4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Shag, Adam Clarke agreed!

Rev 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds - This relates to his coming to execute judgment on the enemies of his religion; perhaps to his coming to destroy Jerusalem, as he was to be particularly manifested to them that pierced him, which must mean the incredulous and rebellious Jews.

And all kindreds of the earth - Πασαι αἱ φυλαι της γης· All the tribes of the land. By this the Jewish people are most evidently intended, and therefore the whole verse may be understood as predicting the destruction of the Jews; and is a presumptive proof that the Apocalypse was written before the final overthrow of the Jewish state.

Even so, Amen - Ναι, αμην· Yea, Amen. It is true, so be it. Our Lord will come and execute judgment on the Jews and Gentiles. This the Jews and Romans particularly felt.

Some folks can just say things so well.

but I believe this shall yet occur quite visibly:

Acts 1:9-11
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

L I B






thanks 4 sharing, especially Eph. 1:18, I had just skimmed over that one b4.




and songs like this are on every Sunday morning. ..."Riding on a cloud". hmmmmm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWSATpx7uzk

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We agree on much, brother, but note:

Here is the issue. Even when I spoke with you in the past, and answered you using info I already wrote up in a FAQ section of my website, you jeered at it saying you would rather have me directly respond to you and not resort to that which I already wrote. You claimed pre-written material was a cop-out, since you wanted to have our on-the-spot opinions that are none other than direct responses to your words and questions, alone. So when you claim you cannot answer now due to your material being in storage, then you do not have on-the-spot answers to our questions and words. So it appears like you demand something from others that you did not supply yourself. It is as though you are doing the same thing to people's responses that you criticized others for doing to your responses.

It appears you do the same thing you laughed at us about when you cannot respond without pulling our pre-written material. It really is the same thing, bro. Leave the material in storage, and give us your understanding of the issues at hand.

Very good comparison Bro. Blume!!