You Be The Judge: Anderson Vs Burk

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Brother Jason, still when all is said and done what a person believes about Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 dictates what they believe on a future coming of the Lord. That is why the UPCI manual states that all forms of Preterism are to be rejected. It states on page 152 of the 2006 manual, "We reject preterist notions that the prophecies of Revelation 4-19 were fulfilled prior to A.D. 70, that Satan is bound, and that we are now living during the thousand years described in Revelation 20." The reason why the manual is commenting on a Partial Preterist interpretation is because they understood early on that Partial Preterism leads to a fulfilled conclusion. A little like, "kill it before it grows", so to speak.

All three of your points hinge on how Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are interpreted.

I understand that you are still looking into those chapters and hope you consider the importance of the time langauge and how if those three chapters are not fulfilled in our immediate future we cannot have a future ccoming of Chirst.

Again please consider the problem of Gog and Magog.

Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 all speak of a tribulation.

Mat 24:21

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, NOR EVER SHALL BE."

Mar 13:19

"For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, NEITHER SHALL BE."

Luk 21:22

"For these be the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN MAY BE FULFILLED."


Rev 20:8-9

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

If we are told by Jesus Christ that there would be a great tribulation in Matthew 24, and Mark 13, and that in Luke 21 it would be a day of vengeance that all (100%) of things that have been written (every jot and tittle) would be fulfilled. Now, if the book of Revelation is yet to be fulfilled after chapter 19, we then run into another battle which is the battle of Gog and Magog. How if the tribulation spoken of Jesus Christ in Matthew, and Mark are such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor EVER SHALL BE! How do we end up with another battle that Jesus never warned us about. Partial Preterist have no answer for that question. There is no such thing as partial futurism. The Bible doesn't bare it out.


Brother Jason, it's either all or nothing. Partial Preterism, is a learning curve that sooner or later leads to a total fulfillment. Those who penned the words in the United Pentecostal Church International Manual understood that.
Partial Preterism if one follows it to it ultimate conclusion will finally come to fulfilled eschatology, and Dispensational teachings of Pre-Tribulation rapture makes no sense and creates more questions then it attempts to answer.

This is why Brother Burk and myself are so persistent with those three chapters. In all of my discussions with different individuals I always ask them to explain what they believe concerning End Time teachings, they usually can't answer a great majority of the questions. They usually say that they need to ask one of their minister friends who know more than they, or need to go over their notes or flip charts. People in Pentecost have been getting turned off for years with mind bending ultra confusion of the End Time issue.
When I have sat down with people (no matter what eschatology they believe) and have them explain to me their view, they really can't. When I show them Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are fulfilled the light bulb goes on. The rest is a just a matter of time and study.

I appreciate you and hope all is well between us.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Bro. Benincasa, you are 100% correct!! Anyone who cannot see this just does not understand eschatology as they should.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason

TK, I'm glad to hear all of this, but that doesn't make the doctrine true. People get all into Universal Reconcilation, does that make it truth? Many a Bible study and people have come to Christ being taught He's coming back again. I would bet 10000 to 1 come to Christ over futurism than full preterism.

I'm not sure of your point.

Brother Jason, that is NOT what Brother Burk was saying.

I would love to sit and watch a dispensationalist or any kind of futurist go a few rounds with a Atheist, Mormon, or Muslim.

Mormonism, as well as Islam have a future coming of Jesus Christ, and if you can refute that and prove it is in the past both of those doctrines crumble into dust.

Atheism on the other hand seeks for physical proof, and the prophecy of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 being fulfilled. Also the fact that history records that the temple was destroyed on the 9th of AV in 70 A.D. on the same exact day in 586 B.C. Blows their minds.

Respectfully

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Bro. Benincasa, you are 100% correct!! Anyone who cannot see this just does not understand eschatology as they should.

Exactly, if Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are fulfilled then the time language of a return of Jesus Christ in the far off future runs into some major problems. Partial Preterism is not an option, just because they insert a physical resurrection of all the dead going all the way back to Adam.
Partial Preterism has everything fulfilled except a final judgement.
The Roman Catholic and Eastern Greek Orthodox churches teach and believe in Partial Preterism.

Also non-dispensational Post Tribulation has Daniel 70 weeks fulfilled and that too causes one to follow a complete fulfillment of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Then as the individual furthers his or her studies they usually come to the conclusion of Fulfilled Eschatology.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Brother Jason, that is NOT what Brother Burk was saying.

I would love to sit and watch a dispensationalist or any kind of futurist go a few rounds with a Atheist, Mormon, or Muslim.

Mormonism, as well as Islam have a future coming of Jesus Christ, and if you can refute that and prove it is in the past both of those doctrines crumble into dust.

Atheism on the other hand seeks for physical proof, and the prophecy of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 being fulfilled. Also the fact that history records that the temple was destroyed on the 9th of AV in 70 A.D. on the same exact day in 586 B.C. Blows their minds.

Respectfully

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Preconceived notions blind a person from seeing what is actually said. From all the distortions of AFP doctrine, you can tell there is an epidemic of it among some of the posters.

[afp1996]

Originally Posted by Jason

Debate section, moderated by prax.
Either you or I would start with an opening statement, who ever doesn't open, gets the final statement.

Maybe:
1)Opening statements
2)first rebuttal
3)second rebuttal
4)closing statements

I don't know what the word limit would be, maybe 600 like Burk/Anderson. Its my preference that the 600 words include pre-written material, but not quotes from the opponent. Any suggestions?

I will agree to that if bible verses are not included in the word count. And as long as it is understood that the coming and the rapture can be handled seperately withiin the debate.

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by Jason

Brotehr, the scripture says it as plainly as it says to baptize in Jesus Name. Just because some don't see the message plainly stated in scripture doesn't mean scripture doesn't specifically address it. Now is this not plain?:

Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:18

Are FP's not saying the EXACT same thing? Case closed.

Exactly and Amen! His whole argument to discredit the clear fact that this
scripture applies to what he is teaching, is to distort the true meaning of
what the resurrection is. He does not believe there is going to be a literal
physical resurrection, and he tries to convey the idea that the apostles
did not believe this either, which is contradictory to the entire body of the
new testament.

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Jason, did you read what I wrote about this? Your argument makes no sense when compared to AFP. Anyone with a working knowledge of these issues knows this. You're shooting blanks my friend.

Shooting blanks? I think that's a 50 caliber! That one scripture drives a nail
through the coffin.

[ChTatum]

Has anyone given me their definition of dispensationalist yet so I can tell them if I am one?

If scripture is so easily overlooked, I would hate to see what is done to Webster......

[Hesetmefree238]

Acts 1:9-11
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

More food for thought.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by ChTatum

Has anyone given me their definition of dispensationalist yet so I can tell them if I am one?

If scripture is so easily overlooked, I would hate to see what is done to Webster......

Bro. Benincasa already did this...

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Do you believe that there are ages in the Bible that are separated into Dispensations of time?

1. The Age of Innocence, from the creation of Adam and Eve until they fell into sin.

2. The Age of Conscience, from the fall into sin to Noah’s flood.

3. The Age of Human Government, from Noah to Abraham.

4. The Age of Promise, from Abraham to Moses.

5. The Age of Law, from Moses to Christ.

6. The Age of Grace, from the death of Christ to the rapture of the Church.

7. The Age of Christ, His personal 1000 year reign, yet future.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com