Do you still believe the doctrine after leaving?

[HopePreacher]

First, a few sentences on my background: I was raised until about age 7 in a UPC church (until about 1953). Our pastor left UPC around that time. In 1959 I received the Holy Ghost in a Pentecostal Church of God at age 12. At age 16 I returned to a UPC church then went to a UPC college graduating in 1969. I pastored and evangelized in the UPC until I left the UPC in 1981. This basic outline may help you see where I am coming from.

When I quit requiring others, and myself, to live by the standards that I never did really believe, and fellowship with other believers that I never really did believe had not been saved because they didn't get it the way I did, a whole new world opened up to me.

To answer the questions:
- Yes I still believe in the oneness. My statement on this issue is that There is but one God and He is Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- I still baptize in Jesus name, but with a twist that most apostolics do not understand. Because it is recorded that Jesus commanded us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost I baptize using these words: "Upon the confession of your faith in Jesus the Christ as your savior and upon the command of Christ, In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost I now baptize you into the Lord Jesus Christ." (Incidently, I am on staff of a Charismatic church and when the senior pastor found out how I baptize he decided that everyone will be baptized that way and now I do most of the baptizing in our church).

Here are some observations:
- Trinitarians do not believe in three Gods and they all believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.
- They do not hate oneness folks because of their doctrine, they are offended at their attitude toward other believers.
- Trinitarian believers teach that we are baptized into Christ, not the godhead and Christian baptism represtents that.
- Is Acts 2:38 essential? Yes it is; but the way many apply it is not.
- Many in the "apostolic" churches live in compromise because they are afraid to express what they really believe for fear of being put down or being thought of as "a compromiser." Isn't it ironic that people will compromise their true feelings to keep from being called a compromiser
- Fear is a great tool in keeping people from going forward in their understanding of God and the body of Christ.

[LUKE2447]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by HopePreacher

First, a few sentences on my background: I was raised until about age 7 in a UPC church (until about 1953). Our pastor left UPC around that time. In 1959 I received the Holy Ghost in a Pentecostal Church of God at age 12. At age 16 I returned to a UPC church then went to a UPC college graduating in 1969. I pastored and evangelized in the UPC until I left the UPC in 1981. This basic outline may help you see where I am coming from.

When I quit requiring others, and myself, to live by the standards that I never did really believe, and fellowship with other believers that I never really did believe had not been saved because they didn't get it the way I did, a whole new world opened up to me.

Doesn't matter whether you believe them or not but are they based on principle teaching. I know many people that believe this and that and think you are free to do whatever you want but are in error. Worlds do open up, right or wrong when you go looking. A whole new world opened up to Adam and Eve too, in error.

- To answer the questions:
Yes I still believe in the oneness. My statement on this issue is that There is but one God and He is Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Wow, don't jump off the unity bridge statement.

[

B]- I still baptize in Jesus name[/B], but with a twist that most apostolics do not understand. Because it is recorded that Jesus commanded us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost I baptize using these words: "Upon the confession of your faith in Jesus the Christ as your savior and upon the command of Christ, In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost I now baptize you into the Lord Jesus Christ." (Incidently, I am on staff of a Charismatic church and when the senior pastor found out how I baptize he decided that everyone will be baptized that way and now I do most of the baptizing in our church).

Obviously you don't! Basically you have no conviction on what the whole of the Bible says and have compromised truth for error. I bet a whole world opened up to you. Next just believe all spokes lead to hub and it will get even bigger. Then you might go on Oprah! Also IMO Matt 28:19 is a fraud and the Catholic church even admits it's not even original but that is for another discussion but way to play both sides. Your statements negate by who's power and authority by mumbo jumbo to where it looks like you say in Jesus name but you don't as you said "into" the Lord Jesus Christ and not the Name but in the "name" of F,S,HS. Will it matter? THat's up to God but you don't know and I don't either but it's not correct and error.

Here are some observations:
- Trinitarians do not believe in three Gods and they all believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.

Who? People with little theological background who believe in one God and call it a Trinity or educated seasoned teachers. When it comes to the educated your wrong! Claiming one thing and the theological facts are another. Trinitarians are good at switching ships in thought to say one thing but the logical conclusion is another.

- They do not hate oneness folks because of their doctrine, they are offended at their attitude toward other believers.

Seriously that is pathetic. Sure not everyone hates but have you ever heard the venom spewed by them. Way to put everything on "us" as if we are the ones who murdered left and right to defend the Trinity throughout history. False doctrine always hates truth. Truth cuts and nobody likes to be cut. Either you lack experience in this area in witnessing to both sides of the distinction of regular Joe and theologian or simply limited to who you have talked and studied.

- Trinitarian believers teach that we are baptized into Christ, not the godhead and Christian baptism represtents that.

Way to get general for acceptance and attempt to confuse the issue. Most teach that happens before baptism at repentance in evangelical churches.

- Is Acts 2:38 essential? Yes it is; but the way many apply it is not.

Again general.

- Many in the "apostolic" churches live in compromise because they are afraid to express what they really believe for fear of being put down or being thought of as "a compromiser." Isn't it ironic that people will compromise their true feelings to keep from being called a compromiser

Isn't this true of any "group"? How about the churches that teach if you teach anything your a legalist that are popping up left and right....

- Fear is a great tool in keeping people from going forward in their understanding of God and the body of Christ.

Define and be more specific. I know baptist churches that are just as bad as some so called "legalist" churches. People trying to define what is right and and what is not is NORMAL! It's called principle teaching and application! GUESS WHAT WE ALL DO IT! We do it to our children and anybody else that listens to us complain about XYZ. Some to different levels than others. Sure some go over board to you but to others not so much. Depends on your view.

[HopePreacher]

I'm not sure of your point in this post except that it appears that you are making an attempt to tear apart my position based upon your particular logical bent. I accept that and I will let others decide on the spirit of your post.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by HopePreacher

I'm not sure of your point in this post except that it appears that you are making an attempt to tear apart my position based upon your particular logical bent.

Wow, imagine that. Someone disagreed with your reasoning and questioned it according to another position you don't hold. Never seen that on a discussion board.

I accept that and I will let others decide on the spirit of your post.

Really don't care what others decide as my posting is not based popularity and whether I get a good rating or not. The Spirit of my post is questioning your thought process. Seems we all do that as error is error no matter who spews it.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by HopePreacher

- I still baptize in Jesus name, but with a twist that most apostolics do not understand. Because it is recorded that Jesus commanded us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost I baptize using these words: "Upon the confession of your faith in Jesus the Christ as your savior and upon the command of Christ, In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost I now baptize you into the Lord Jesus Christ."

I read, and largely agree with your post-at least the spirit of your post (not all of your opinions). However, I certainly do think using such baptismal formula is a compromise catch all. Why not throw in the name "YHWH" to make the sacred name people happy also?

After reading that, I wasn't suprised to read the next part:

Originally Posted by HopePreacher

(Incidently, I am on staff of a Charismatic church and when the senior pastor found out how I baptize he decided that everyone will be baptized that way and now I do most of the baptizing in our church).

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by HopePreacher

First, a few sentences on my background: I was raised until about age 7 in a UPC church (until about 1953). Our pastor left UPC around that time. In 1959 I received the Holy Ghost in a Pentecostal Church of God at age 12. At age 16 I returned to a UPC church then went to a UPC college graduating in 1969. I pastored and evangelized in the UPC until I left the UPC in 1981. This basic outline may help you see where I am coming from.

When I quit requiring others, and myself, to live by the standards that I never did really believe, and fellowship with other believers that I never really did believe had not been saved because they didn't get it the way I did, a whole new world opened up to me.

To answer the questions:
- Yes I still believe in the oneness. My statement on this issue is that There is but one God and He is Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- I still baptize in Jesus name, but with a twist that most apostolics do not understand. Because it is recorded that Jesus commanded us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost I baptize using these words: "Upon the confession of your faith in Jesus the Christ as your savior and upon the command of Christ, In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost I now baptize you into the Lord Jesus Christ." (Incidently, I am on staff of a Charismatic church and when the senior pastor found out how I baptize he decided that everyone will be baptized that way and now I do most of the baptizing in our church).

Here are some observations:
- Trinitarians do not believe in three Gods and they all believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.
- They do not hate oneness folks because of their doctrine, they are offended at their attitude toward other believers.
- Trinitarian believers teach that we are baptized into Christ, not the godhead and Christian baptism represtents that.
- Is Acts 2:38 essential? Yes it is; but the way many apply it is not.
- Many in the "apostolic" churches live in compromise because they are afraid to express what they really believe for fear of being put down or being thought of as "a compromiser." Isn't it ironic that people will compromise their true feelings to keep from being called a compromiser
- Fear is a great tool in keeping people from going forward in their understanding of God and the body of Christ.

That's not true -- Trinitarians believer our doctrine of the godhead to be heretical plain and simple. I've interacted with some pretty well-known Trinitarian scholars on this, and all agree its heretical. Some are given a little credence because we still believe in Christ's deity, but most by and far think Oneness theology is a joke in light of Orthodox teachings.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

That's not true -- Trinitarians believer our doctrine of the godhead to be heretical plain and simple. I've interacted with some pretty well-known Trinitarian scholars on this, and all agree its heretical. Some are given a little credence because we still believe in Christ's deity, but most by and far think Oneness theology is a joke in light of Orthodox teachings.

Thanks for your anecdotal evidence, I have some too and mine is the exact opposite. I have had interaction with a lot of Trinitarians scholars while taking classes in Theology at Regent, and not one of them expressed the idea it was heretical. I have also worked with Trinitarians within their ministry some for several years and even held teaching position within their churches and NEVER had that response. Certainly there are those out there that are ALWAYS right and anything they disagree with is heretical.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Thanks for your anecdotal evidence, I have some too and mine is the exact opposite. I have had interaction with a lot of Trinitarians scholars while taking classes in Theology at Regent, and not one of them expressed the idea it was heretical. I have also worked with Trinitarians within their ministry some for several years and even held teaching position within their churches and NEVER had that response. Certainly there are those out there that are ALWAYS right and anything they disagree with is heretical.

I didn't know I needed footnotes and AP citations to make a claim that is quite obvious. There are some charismatic churches that use people if they aren't even saved, so it wouldn't surprise me that that are some that use people, even if they are a Modalist. But, by and far, fundamentalists, scholars, teachers and prominent leaders within Trinitarian circles see Modalism as a great heresy. It sounds like you've encountered for tolerant people in your studies and ministry. My experience has been opposite, and any Trinitarian's position papers would support that.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

I didn't know I needed footnotes and AP citations to make a claim that is quite obvious. There are some charismatic churches that use people if they aren't even saved, so it wouldn't surprise me that that are some that use people, even if they are a Modalist. But, by and far, fundamentalists, scholars, teachers and prominent leaders within Trinitarian circles see Modalism as a great heresy. It sounds like you've encountered for tolerant people in your studies and ministry. My experience has been opposite, and any Trinitarian's position papers would support that.

Perhaps, as MOW pointed, out it is the attitude with which you come into contact with them that creates such an attitude. I never claimed to work in charismatic churches. Besides I thought, from your position, everyone in a Charismatic church was unsaved?

Again you make an unsubstantiated claim based only on your experience. Take for instance the fact that Western Theological had serious concerns about letting five Oneness professors attend classes. One prof in particular opposed them strongly. When their time there was over another group of students followed from CLC, one a close friend of mine. When he was juggling classes and work the same professor who had so opposed Oneness people in his school, offered his home to help another Oneness student complete his studies. Why? Someone built a bridge.

When I went to Regent, I encountered nothing but kindness and respect from all the professors I came in contact with. One Prof. asked me to explain a Oneness view of the Godhead to him after class we have had a great relationship and he has invited me to sit in on classes he thought I would be interested in even after I had switched over to the school of law. Vinson Synan was the dean of the school of theology he spoke highly of many of prominent men in our movement that he had known for years. One prof. looked me up every time he had contact with other oneness people.

When someone claims to be Oneness and then acts like a jerk to everyone who doesn't believe the way they do that creates a bad name for all of us. I recall reading an account of a young man in Bible College going with his friends and basically taking over an Assembly of God meeting and preaching at them. When Pastor Haney found out he had to go and rebuild relationships and apologize for these students.

Obviously if I am writing a position paper and arguing for my position I am going to try and tear down another view, that is true if I am Oneness writing about other heretical Oneness view as well. But that doesn't mean that we cannot work together, as long as both are willing.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Perhaps, as MOW pointed, out it is the attitude with which you come into contact with them that creates such an attitude. I never claimed to work in charismatic churches. Besides I thought, from your position, everyone in a Charismatic church was unsaved?

Again you make an unsubstantiated claim based only on your experience. Take for instance the fact that Western Theological had serious concerns about letting five Oneness professors attend classes. One prof in particular opposed them strongly. When their time there was over another group of students followed from CLC, one a close friend of mine. When he was juggling classes and work the same professor who had so opposed Oneness people in his school, offered his home to help another Oneness student complete his studies. Why? Someone built a bridge.

When I went to Regent, I encountered nothing but kindness and respect from all the professors I came in contact with. One Prof. asked me to explain a Oneness view of the Godhead to him after class we have had a great relationship and he has invited me to sit in on classes he thought I would be interested in even after I had switched over to the school of law. Vinson Synan was the dean of the school of theology he spoke highly of many of prominent men in our movement that he had known for years. One prof. looked me up every time he had contact with other oneness people.

When someone claims to be Oneness and then acts like a jerk to everyone who doesn't believe the way they do that creates a bad name for all of us. I recall reading an account of a young man in Bible College going with his friends and basically taking over an Assembly of God meeting and preaching at them. When Pastor Haney found out he had to go and rebuild relationships and apologize for these students.

Obviously if I am writing a position paper and arguing for my position I am going to try and tear down another view, that is true if I am Oneness writing about other heretical Oneness view as well. But that doesn't mean that we cannot work together, as long as both are willing.

Usually the average person in church doesn't care about the difference and sees no big deal because you believe JEsus is God. If you where a JW..... it could get ugly. Usually it's seminary students or associate pastors etc... that will give people fits cast them down. It's not just OP preachers etc... Protecting the flock you know. LOL!