Let me preview this by saying I have been away for a few days. Haven't read the whole thread - and haven't been updated by the media regarding this situation.... However, while reading through this thread, the above comment just grabbed me and I couldn't resist responding before finishing my read.... I apologize if this has already been discussed......
Stew - you are cracking me up here! Obviously, you have never had someone you love take an oath to protect their city - put their life on the line every single day to fulfill that oath!
1) Night
2) Neighbor call someone breaking in
3) Yeah, right - we just calmly walk up to the door, knock and give a "courtesy call" to verify identity......
Officer: "Sir, we received a call that someone was breaking in here. Do you live here?" Possible criminal: "Oh, yes I certainly do!
Officer: "Thank you kind sir. Sorry to have bothered you."
You think criminals always tell the truth????
Until someone you love dearly is the one putting their life on the line each and every day - you cannot understand what these men and women go through! Is there sometimes police abuse of power? Absolutely - however, from my knowledge of this situation, it appears that this officer has an impeccable record. When I catch up on the past three days news and if I find out differently, I will be back to apologize.
My problem with all this.............. All the professor had to do was present his ID (calmly and politely) when FIRST asked for it!!! Had this been me, I would have felt bad that I had caused the officers to be taken off the street to check out my situation - simply because I had "stupidly" locked myself out of my home.
Also......... as an aside, we were never allowed to use the word stupid or any derivative of it in our home. It went against my grain to type it in the above paragraph. For the POTUS to have described the Cambridge police department's actions as such overrode my mother's voice! He is a man totally without class to have used his position and spoken in such a manner!
Sweet Pea, I actually do have many people close to me in law enforcement. I have brothers in my church as well who I know to be great officers. I do not for a second, though, take that as proof that every officer is good and right in how he or she approaches every situation.
I think that to try to infer that questioning one officer is somehow indicative of someone having no respect for any officer is unhealthy in a conversation like this. It's the old "you must not be a patriot if you question the decisions of the Commander-in-Chief" argument all over again.
a.) It was not night
b.) the point that many people are making is that upon arriving and seeing a well-dressed sixty year old man in the foyer, most people would have recognized that it was possibly not a break-in. Where people interject race into the conversation is when discussing whether the way the officer and the caller approached the situation may have been different. I do not presume to know this, but I will say that if did affect the way he was approached, it would not be the first time it happened.
I have also never intimated that I think the professor acted appropriately. I was not there and do not have an objective account of the events...but I am pretty confident that the professor was irate and loud.
You said "You think criminals always tell the truth???? "
Many say "Do you think the officer involved always tells the truth?"
Now obviously the officers are truthful more often than criminals...but at the same time, not everyone who has contact with the police is a "criminal"
I'm not one to assume that a police report is an unbiased, accurate description of events (I know officers who know how to word reports just right. It would be pretty foolish in my opinion for an officer to write a report that indicated wrongdoing on his part)
"While I was led to believe that Gates was lawfully in the residence, I was quite surprised and confused at the behavior he exhibited towards me.I asked Gates to provide me with photo identification so that I could verify that he resided at ______ and so that I could radio my findings to ECC. Gates initially refused, demanding that I show him identification, but then he did supply me with a Harvard University identification card. Upon learning that Gates was affiliated with Harvard, I radioed and requested the presence of the Harvard University Police"
The simple question that many people are asking is why after Gates had provided ID, was the officer continuing to remain in the house...and in fact call for backup?
Once they found out it was Gate’s house, they should have left immediately, yelling or not. Cops aren’t special humans who can’t be yelled at...particularly when they are mistaken and you have complied with their orders sufficiently in your own house.
I have never once attempted to defend Obama's or Gate's actions. My question has been about whether he should have been arrested at his house...and how much of the story might not be reflected in either the police report or Gates' account. The truth may lie somewhere in the middle.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
... I have never once attempted to defend Obama's or Gate's actions. My question has been about whether he should have been arrested at his house...and how much of the story might not be reflected in either the police report or Gates' account. The truth may lie somewhere in the middle.
Stewie, I understood that he was arrested for disorderly conduct. This charge and arrest was the result of action after the initial contact and ID check.
Basically, he ticked the cops off. He kept after them. Even the African-American cop who was photographed at the scene said he was "100%" in support of the arrest.
Cops do have the discretion to arrest and/or hold someone who is being "disruptive." The photo of the scene seems to show the prof was at least being loud. But once the arrest is made, the local DA has the discretion to throw the whole thing out - and that's what happened.
If we agree that the cops were within their rights to question and ask for ID - and I think we are, then the whole case is moot - except that the prof didn't want to leave it at that. Perhaps he felt offended and belittled by the circumstance? Dunno. But he pushed back at the cops and triggered his own arrest. And even then, his "push back" was considered of such an inconsequential nature that the DA threw the whole thing out. So, it's hard to say the prof was the "bad guy" either.
It was just some local thing where cooler heads needed to prevail. It never should have involved the President of the United States.
Stewie, I understood that he was arrested for disorderly conduct. This charge and arrest was the result of action after the initial contact and ID check.
Basically, he ticked the cops off. He kept after them. Even the African-American cop who was photographed at the scene said he was "100%" in support of the arrest.
Cops do have the discretion to arrest and/or hold someone who is being "disruptive." The photo of the scene seems to show the prof was at least being loud. But once the arrest is made, the local DA has the discretion to throw the whole thing out - and that's what happened.
If we agree that the cops were within their rights to question and ask for ID - and I think we are, then the whole case is moot - except that the prof didn't want to leave it at that. Perhaps he felt offended and belittled by the circumstance? Dunno. But he pushed back at the cops and triggered his own arrest. And even then, his "push back" was considered of such an inconsequential nature that the DA threw the whole thing out. So, it's hard to say the prof was the "bad guy" either.
It was just some local thing where cooler heads needed to prevail. It never should have involved the President of the United States.
Pel, my point is that a police report is not always an objective, unbiased account of police behavior. I do believe that most often, they are an accurate account, but I also know that whenever police behavior is questionable, it is not always best to accept the nature and tone of the officers' own report as always gospel truth. They are human like evryone else.
That being said, my observation is that even in the officer's own report, he states that the professor had presented photo ID, yet the officer continued to remain in the house and call for back-up. If the professor was irate and not really happy about the officer being there in the first place, why continue to detain him in his house and call for back-up after he produced his ID?
I know that you believe that the officer was just quiet and deeply respectful as the professor berated him, but I think that they both were probably a bit upset by that point. The one thing that I agree with the President about is that cooler heads should have prevailed.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Pel, my point is that a police report is not always an objective, unbiased account of police behavior. I do believe that most often, they are an accurate account, but I also know that whenever police behavior is questionable, it is not always best to accept the nature and tone of the officers' own report as always gospel truth. They are human like evryone else.
That being said, my observation is that even in the officer's own report, he states that the professor had presented photo ID, yet the officer continued to remain in the house and call for back-up. If the professor was irate and not really happy about the officer being there in the first place, why continue to detain him in his house and call for back-up after he produced his ID?
I know that you believe that the officer was just quiet and deeply respectful as the professor berated him, but I think that they both were probably a bit upset by that point. The one thing that I agree with the President about is that cooler heads should have prevailed.
The report I read had the Prof irate before he would show ID, in fact he didn't seem too willing show ID (He was indigent), however did the cop really say that after he presented ID the cop milled around in the Profs house for a while?
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
The report I read had the Prof irate before he would show ID, in fact he didn't seem too willing show ID (He was indigent), however did the cop really say that after he presented ID the cop milled around in the Profs house for a while?
Yes, I quoted his report in a post earlier. He basically said that after the professor showed his Harvard ID, he stayed in the house and called for Harvard police backup. I believe the professor stated that he showed both his DL and the Harvard ID.
I'm just of the opinion that if the professor was already upset about them being in there, at the point where he did comply with the request to identify himself, the officer should have left. I think that it is very likely that the officer did get upset at how the professor was disrespecting him and you were dealing with two men who felt disrespected for whatever reason.
I know that each side will say that they were acting very civil and were the picture of genteelity...
I just don't think it should have come to this.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Yes, I quoted his report in a post earlier. He basically said that after the professor showed his Harvard ID, he stayed in the house and called for Harvard police backup. I believe the professor stated that he showed both his DL and the Harvard ID.
I'm just of the opinion that if the professor was already upset about them being in there, at the point where he did comply with the request to identify himself, the officer should have left. I think that it is very likely that the officer did get upset at how the professor was disrespecting him and you were dealing with two men who felt disrespected for whatever reason.
I know that each side will say that they were acting very civil and were the picture of genteelity...
I just don't think it should have come to this.
That would also depend on department policy. Does he just leave? Does he call in and verify the ID like he would mine when I get pulled over?
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
the man was wearing a backpack...how well dressed, well to do man we are not told, but he was wearing a backpack
He was seen by a neighbor PRYING the front door open.
The house was RECENTLY burglarized
The Cops were only told it was a break in. They were not told it was being broken into by the owner.
think about it. They have to do an investigation and ASSUME there might have been a break in IN PROGRESS...if that is the case they can't NOT be cautious. It could mean their life.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
the man was wearing a backpack...how well dressed, well to do man we are not told, but he was wearing a backpack
He was seen by a neighbor PRYING the front door open.
The house was RECENTLY burglarized
The Cops were only told it was a break in. They were not told it was being broken into by the owner.
think about it. They have to do an investigation and ASSUME there might have been a break in IN PROGRESS...if that is the case they can't NOT be cautious. It could mean their life.
Don't try to confuse us with the facts and logic. Thank heavens Monkeyman should be along anytime to straighten you out by claiming that you are just prejudice and this was a terrible civil rights injustice against this dear Black college professor.
Oh, and did you know Black folks can't get jobs in America? That they have no preferential treatment? Just ask Monkeyman. Speaking of which do you know what the ideal employment canidate is for many American Corporations? It is a handicapped black lesbian female. That is the homerun in diversity.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
the man was wearing a backpack...how well dressed, well to do man we are not told, but he was wearing a backpack
He was seen by a neighbor PRYING the front door open.
The house was RECENTLY burglarized
The Cops were only told it was a break in. They were not told it was being broken into by the owner.
think about it. They have to do an investigation and ASSUME there might have been a break in IN PROGRESS...if that is the case they can't NOT be cautious. It could mean their life.
What does a backpack have to do with the going rate of Wal-mart stock on the Dow Jones?? I wear a backpack everyday to my office (It's Hurley...pretty cool, actually).
__________________ Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? Will God? No! HE IS THE ONE who has given us right standing with himself. Who then will condemn us? Will Christ Jesus? No, for HE IS THE ONE who died for us and was raised to life for us and is sitting at the place of highest honor next to God, pleading for us. (Romans 8:33-34)
"The greatest enemy to the movement of Jesus Christ is Christianity". –Erwin McManus
What does a backpack have to do with the going rate of Wal-mart stock on the Dow Jones?? I wear a backpack everyday to my office (It's Hurley...pretty cool, actually).
I think the prof was coming home from a vacation, not a lecture or a wall street meeting. With a backpack then I do not think he was dressed like a "well to do prof" but rather someone that just got back from a vacation or a hike maybe?
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Hybrid Mode
