I contend, however, that experience can only get you so far. And at times, it may be easier to travel the road of skepticism, for it is a downhill incline. I know, because at times, I have been guilty myself. I have also found, through experience, that confusion can be a result of doubt. If faith waxes weak, then oft times, our mind becomes capable of distorting our perspective.
Case in point, consider the Old Testament example in your post regarding the cultural differences. Can we truly sit back and judge righteously from our generation those things that took place hundreds of years ago in another part of the world? Until you have witnessed (Deuteronomy 12:30-31) in the same manner as the Israelites, you may find yourself in an awkward place condemning other cultures for their reactions or interventions. And I will point out, that even today, certain societies don't evenly match the same experiences, or push for the same ideals as observed in our nation. I concede that sin is sin, but I do not believe that a seamless, perfect humanity should have existed in the Bible to make it more believable. My friend, the opposite is what makes it believable! The mistakes and shortcomings of individuals and entire nations is embarrassingly honest at times. In its most truest sense, we can find ourselves in the passages of scripture, which transcends time to relate and combine with our humanity.
If I could mention the experience of one of my favorite writers. C.S. Lewis writes of the Bible, and the Gospels in particular:
"I have been reading poems, romances, vision literature, legends, and myths all my life. I know what they are like. I know none of them are like this. Of this [gospel] text there are only two possible views. Either this is reportage...or else, some unknown [ancient] writer...without known predecessors or successors, suddenly anticipated the whole technique of modern novelistic narrative..."
In times when my own experience fails me, I find myself crawling back to the words of Jesus. They always comfort me when nothing else can. (Luke 24:38-39)
I agree. Experience will only take us so far. We do need to rely on the accounts of History to confirm our ultimatums in life. I do appreciate historical accounts that share the rise and fall of humanity. This one thing is for certain, though; Man is basically the same as he has been since the beginning. There is nothing new under the sun. Killing is killing, no matter what time frame you live in. Adultery is adultery. Love is love. Hate is hate.
We complicate our lives with the technicalities of presumption, not experience. Experience reveals the flaws of what we read about in the past. Experience unlocks the door to those who've lied to us on pages of a book. Experience shows the truth about who we are, and what makes us tick.
In my Bible study last night, I gave this example; Marriage. Newlyweds make claims, have ideas, and devote to promises. But, only experience reveals the truth. Only experience crushes the fantasy.
When my wife engaged in vows 29 years ago, we had ideas, but no experience. My wife became so ill during her first pregnancy she almost had to be hospitalized. She weighed less after the baby was born than before she got pregnant. 3 months later, our son died of Crib Death. This was not in the plan. We never expected this. But, it became our experience, our reality. Watching my wife crumble under her emotion of losing that baby is beyond words. Going to the crib, reaching down to feel our son not breathing scarred her mind for years. We still cry when we talk about our little boy. Touching death revealed much about who we were. The joy of our vows was gone. Our house was still, the cry of our baby gone forever. Only the tears of my wife did I feel, and her moans of grief were daily.
We went on to have 3 more children, who are all adults today and have their own children. Failure, sickness, and much more have caused me to see life through a different lens. What I used to say, I don't say anymore, because of experience. When mothers cry from losing their son, I don’t need a text book. I hear their moan and feel their pain.
When the Israelites went into Amalek to slaughter children, I’m sorry, but I have a hard time with God condoning this. Unless we are willing to kill children ourselves, we have no business telling this story with authority. My own experience see’s the mothers of these homes, screaming for mercy as these men went from place to place with blood in their eyes. This was done in the name of the Lord, according to Scripture. My question is: Who validates this??? Those with no experience? Those who won’t kill the baby?
I also expressed to the church, in the beginning God created a man and a woman to build the Family. This was before Bibles, religion, war, hunger, and everything else we deal with on this Planet. Through experience, I see as Adam saw. We created children, going on to love the imperfect. I don't cast my children out because they fail, sin, or they go into faraway places of ignoring me. I love my children and would never cast them into flames of Hell. I cry when they hurt me, and lose sleep when they lose their way. But never would I do to them what we tell others God is going to do to them.
If God made the Family first, this tells me that the experience learned by being devoted to this initial plan was God’s intention to teach us about Him. This relational marvel called the Family, requiring mercy, love, patience, forgiveness, and utter devotion will build a healthy concept of our Creator. Unless we revolutionize our theory, we will continue to plunge our enemies over the cliff and into the abyss of Eternal Fire. This is Religions Revenge, not God’s love for imperfect people.
The Bible is just a Book, built by men who expressed what “God told them”, just like men today say, “God told me”. It’s a book of History, full of error. It’s a Book that confuses the World about God. Like I’ve stated numerous times, if the Bible was simple, and God expressed in the Bible was pure, we would have unity by it, not WAR.
Experience is the only thing that really gets me past this, because experience is REAL.
I agree. Experience will only take us so far. We do need to rely on the accounts of History to confirm our ultimatums in life. I do appreciate historical accounts that share the rise and fall of humanity. This one thing is for certain, though; Man is basically the same as he has been since the beginning. There is nothing new under the sun. Killing is killing, no matter what time frame you live in. Adultery is adultery. Love is love. Hate is hate.
We complicate our lives with the technicalities of presumption, not experience. Experience reveals the flaws of what we read about in the past. Experience unlocks the door to those who've lied to us on pages of a book. Experience shows the truth about who we are, and what makes us tick.
In my Bible study last night, I gave this example; Marriage. Newlyweds make claims, have ideas, and devote to promises. But, only experience reveals the truth. Only experience crushes the fantasy.
When my wife engaged in vows 29 years ago, we had ideas, but no experience. My wife became so ill during her first pregnancy she almost had to be hospitalized. She weighed less after the baby was born than before she got pregnant. 3 months later, our son died of Crib Death. This was not in the plan. We never expected this. But, it became our experience, our reality. Watching my wife crumble under her emotion of losing that baby is beyond words. Going to the crib, reaching down to feel our son not breathing scarred her mind for years. We still cry when we talk about our little boy. Touching death revealed much about who we were. The joy of our vows was gone. Our house was still, the cry of our baby gone forever. Only the tears of my wife did I feel, and her moans of grief were daily.
We went on to have 3 more children, who are all adults today and have their own children. Failure, sickness, and much more have caused me to see life through a different lens. What I used to say, I don't say anymore, because of experience. When mothers cry from losing their son, I don’t need a text book. I hear their moan and feel their pain.
When the Israelites went into Amalek to slaughter children, I’m sorry, but I have a hard time with God condoning this. Unless we are willing to kill children ourselves, we have no business telling this story with authority. My own experience see’s the mothers of these homes, screaming for mercy as these men went from place to place with blood in their eyes. This was done in the name of the Lord, according to Scripture. My question is: Who validates this??? Those with no experience? Those who won’t kill the baby?
I also expressed to the church, in the beginning God created a man and a woman to build the Family. This was before Bibles, religion, war, hunger, and everything else we deal with on this Planet. Through experience, I see as Adam saw. We created children, going on to love the imperfect. I don't cast my children out because they fail, sin, or they go into faraway places of ignoring me. I love my children and would never cast them into flames of Hell. I cry when they hurt me, and lose sleep when they lose their way. But never would I do to them what we tell others God is going to do to them.
If God made the Family first, this tells me that the experience learned by being devoted to this initial plan was God’s intention to teach us about Him. This relational marvel called the Family, requiring mercy, love, patience, forgiveness, and utter devotion will build a healthy concept of our Creator. Unless we revolutionize our theory, we will continue to plunge our enemies over the cliff and into the abyss of Eternal Fire. This is Religions Revenge, not God’s love for imperfect people.
The Bible is just a Book, built by men who expressed what “God told them”, just like men today say, “God told me”. It’s a book of History, full of error. It’s a Book that confuses the World about God. Like I’ve stated numerous times, if the Bible was simple, and God expressed in the Bible was pure, we would have unity by it, not WAR.
Experience is the only thing that really gets me past this, because experience is REAL.
This is great. It says so much more eloquence what I have thought for quite some time. That there are only two possibilities when it comes to knowing about God. Either we can discern what he is like philosophically from necessity or we can discern what God is like through experience and observation. Personally I like philosophy but it can never tell you about what really is, it can only tell you what can be if some premise is true and what cannot be some premise is not true. Experience and observation is the only hope we have of knowing what really is.
I've often wondered if all the stories about God from the bible were collected and only them examined with no prior ideas about any of God's characteristics what would be revealed about God. I'm sure a vastly different conception of God would be obtained than what many Christians currently have. In other words, it seems many of the bible stories reveal conflicting characteristics about God to what Christians perceive him as being.
So how should we discern what God is like, from experiences and stories that we attribute to him, or from the generalizations we say about him?
This is great. It says so much more eloquence what I have thought for quite some time. That there are only two possibilities when it comes to knowing about God. Either we can discern what he is like philosophically from necessity or we can discern what God is like through experience and observation. Personally I like philosophy but it can never tell you about what really is, it can only tell you what can be if some premise is true and what cannot be some premise is not true. Experience and observation is the only hope we have of knowing what really is.
. . .
Ideally, there would be a feedback loop in place, where experience tests and either validates or invalidates one's philosophy, and one would then modify the philosophy to fit experience (reality) better.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Ideally, there would be a feedback loop in place, where experience tests and either validates or invalidates one's philosophy, and one would then modify the philosophy to fit experience (reality) better.
Amen. One strange turn of event's for me is the "Darkness hateth the Light" concept. This is usually referred to the World hating the Light we shed upon them for their evil deeds.
I'm not so sure the above is true, as Jesus vehemently put Light upon the Religious, and they hated him for it. Darkness was (is) Religion, not the World.
He was also hated for reaching out to those of sinful status.
Ideally, there would be a feedback loop in place, where experience tests and either validates or invalidates one's philosophy, and one would then modify the philosophy to fit experience (reality) better.
Does the only valid experiences consists of those we can sense? What about the supernatural? Reading just a small portion of this thread makes me realize how little patience I have with this junk since I've become a Christian and my Christian conversion experiences have proven to me that the word of God, the Bible, it true!
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His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
Does the only valid experiences consists of those we can sense? What about the supernatural? Reading just a small portion of this thread makes me realize how little patience I have with this junk since I've become a Christian and my Christian conversion experiences have proven to me that the word of God, the Bible, it true!
Supernatural experiences can "prove" any religion, not just Christianity.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Does the only valid experiences consists of those we can sense? What about the supernatural?
What about the supernatural? Perhaps God defies our laws from time to time for our benefit, but I don't think He expects us to disregard the natural order of things based off of those anomalous experiences. Neither do I believe in a cosmic jokster, or a schizophrenic deity setting about to confuse humanity; hence, many of us have to reevaluate when people say or write "God said!"
Do you suppose God enjoys playing mind games with the human race? I think what NFS and I are saying, is that we struggle with our current available translation of scripture seeing how it seems to exhibit certain errors here and there. Could it be that 2 Timothy 3:16 includes room in its meaning for human error? Pardon me if I may have missed it, but have you attempted to reconcile these apparent discrepancies we've presented here and on other threads?
btw, thanks for sharing the link to the website regarding Biblical Inerrancy. I am going through it slowly. And for the record, my belief is that the Original Manuscripts were inerrant.
Which manuscripts? The ones for the 66 books we accept today as the canon?
You are correct. The argument is not over whether our current translations (KJV, etc.) contain discrepancies, (they do) but whether the Originals did. I cannot demonstrate their present existence or verify their inerrancy. Quite frankly, providing any of that proof now is not a reality; hence, I give faith precedence. At this point, it is unnatural for me to deliberately undermine the authority of the words of Jesus, or His promises. I still wonder at His words, and cannot find fault with any of His teachings. And so, since these great truths are interconnected with the rest of the Text, I must assume a common authority exists.
However, I do not consider myself a pure inerrantist (if there is such a thing). Of course, the definition of Biblical Inerrancy must first be explained so that one can effectively determine whether a person is assuming "errors" or "falsities."
Ideally, there would be a feedback loop in place, where experience tests and either validates or invalidates one's philosophy, and one would then modify the philosophy to fit experience (reality) better.
My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. 
Hybrid Mode
