Your answer to illegal immigration.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's an ethical question....

Is wanting to be free a criminal act?

No more than wanting to have sex.

It depends on how one goes about it.



The problem with Christians taking a "soft" stance on illegal immigration is that, inevitably, that soft position will cause one to compromise on sin.

Either it is sin to break the natural laws that do not violate the Bible or not.

Yes, God forgives, but it can't be the norm for Christians to sin-- that would be called lasciviousness, right?

So eventually, the Holy Ghost filled illegal alien Christians should be expected and encouraged to do right by the law and correct their status-- even if it means they have to go back to wherever they came from, which is the option I prefer for ALL illegal aliens.



Is there any other sin that we can tolerate, excuse, brush under the rug, act like it's not an issue? Or maybe I'm being legalistic.

Maybe we should start classifying sins into categories of "abominable", "very wicked", "evil", "slightly sinful", and "sinful but understandable."




Based off of basic Biblical concepts of right and wrong and the account of Philemon, illegal aliens, Christians or not, should leave on their own accord or be "escorted" out, if necessary.

No one is perfect, and I need God's Grace daily.
I forgive those who offend me and I work at not holding grudges.

But I am not wrong to call sin what it is.
I am not wrong to excuse it.

I love everybody.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

No more than wanting to have sex.

It depends on how one goes about it.



The problem with Christians taking a "soft" stance on illegal immigration is that, inevitably, that soft position will cause one to compromise on sin.

Either it is sin to break the natural laws that do not violate the Bible or not.

Yes, God forgives, but it can't be the norm for Christians to sin-- that would be called lasciviousness, right?

So eventually, the Holy Ghost filled illegal alien Christians should be expected and encouraged to do right by the law and correct their status-- even if it means they have to go back to wherever they came from, which is the option I prefer for ALL illegal aliens.



Is there any other sin that we can tolerate, excuse, brush under the rug, act like it's not an issue? Or maybe I'm being legalistic.

Maybe we should start classifying sins into categories of "abominable", "very wicked", "evil", "slightly sinful", and "sinful but understandable."




Based off of basic Biblical concepts of right and wrong and the account of Philemon, illegal aliens, Christians or not, should leave on their own accord or be "escorted" out, if necessary.

No one is perfect, and I need God's Grace daily.
I forgive those who offend me and I work at not holding grudges.

But I am not wrong to call sin what it is.
I am not wrong to excuse it.

I love everybody.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

No more than wanting to have sex.

It depends on how one goes about it.



The problem with Christians taking a "soft" stance on illegal immigration is that, inevitably, that soft position will cause one to compromise on sin.

Either it is sin to break the natural laws that do not violate the Bible or not.

Yes, God forgives, but it can't be the norm for Christians to sin-- that would be called lasciviousness, right?

So eventually, the Holy Ghost filled illegal alien Christians should be expected and encouraged to do right by the law and correct their status-- even if it means they have to go back to wherever they came from, which is the option I prefer for ALL illegal aliens.



Is there any other sin that we can tolerate, excuse, brush under the rug, act like it's not an issue? Or maybe I'm being legalistic.

Maybe we should start classifying sins into categories of "abominable", "very wicked", "evil", "slightly sinful", and "sinful but understandable."




Based off of basic Biblical concepts of right and wrong and the account of Philemon, illegal aliens, Christians or not, should leave on their own accord or be "escorted" out, if necessary.

No one is perfect, and I need God's Grace daily.
I forgive those who offend me and I work at not holding grudges.

But I am not wrong to call sin what it is.
I am not wrong to excuse it.

I love everybody.

I see what you're saying and where you're coming from. I can also agree that you're take on it has a lot of logic. But here's my point of departure....

If a law is unjust or cannot be enforced the law itself is unjust. For example, if they outlawed owning a Bible. It would be our duty to break the law and resist authority. Or if America adopted a mandatory abortion policy like China's it would be our duty to break the law and resist authority. For example it was Christian duty to resist authority and even help black slaves escape to freedom from the plantations of the South.

I don't think your reference to Philemon is well thought out. Here's why. Philemon was a wealthy slave owner, and a Christian. He may have even been a leader in the local church of Colossae because Paul's letter indicates that he had meetings in his home (Go house churchers! Go house churchers! Woop! Woop!). Anyway, Onesimus, one of Philemon's slaves, takes money from Philemon and escapes. Eventually Onesimus becomes a Christian and now Paul admonishes Philemon to forgive Onesimus and take him back as his Christian brother. I question if Paul would have had Onesimus return to Philemon if Philemon was an abusive tyrant. The comparison fails.

These are men and women seeking freedom. They often live in oppressed countries where drug lords gun people down in the streets and the poverty is so bad they would have to sell drugs or get into illegal business to thrive. Or their wives and daughters are forced to prostitute to survive. These flee to the United States because it represents freedom and a better life. Not only for them but for those they leave behind to whom they often send money. They come here to work, most often honest jobs and trades when they could do something illegal at home, they break an outdated law that needs reformed here to work a decent honest job. Who would want to force them to return to conditions like those listed? Paul wouldn't.

Those who have come in here illegally have come in because they want freedom but our immigration law is flawed. It takes too long. It's often too bureaucratic. Anyone who thinks our immigration laws don't need serious reform aren't very informed. Sometimes they are in desperate situations at home and they can't wait forever for processing. Who wants to deal drugs or see one's wife turn tricks for months or years until paperwork is processed? I say that those who are here... are here. We do well to welcome them in. I say grant them citizenship, fine them $200 - $500, and put a 1st degree Misdemeanor on their record. Reform the laws and streamline the process for future would be immigrants.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I see what you're saying and where you're coming from. I can also agree that you're take on it has a lot of logic. But here's my point of departure....

If a law is unjust or cannot be enforced the law itself is unjust. For example, if they outlawed owning a Bible. It would be our duty to break the law and resist authority. Or if America adopted a mandatory abortion policy like China's it would be our duty to break the law and resist authority. For example it was Christian duty to resist authority and even help black slaves escape to freedom from the plantations of the South.

I don't think your reference to Philemon is well thought out. Here's why. Philemon was a wealthy slave owner, and a Christian. He may have even been a leader in the local church of Colossae because Paul's letter indicates that he had meetings in his home (Go house churchers! Go house churchers! Woop! Woop!). Anyway, Onesimus, one of Philemon's slaves, takes money from Philemon and escapes. Eventually Onesimus becomes a Christian and now Paul admonishes Philemon to forgive Onesimus and take him back as his Christian brother. I question if Paul would have had Onesimus return to Philemon if Philemon was an abusive tyrant. The comparison fails.

These are men and women seeking freedom. They often live in oppressed countries where drug lords gun people down in the streets and the poverty is so bad they would have to sell drugs or get into illegal business to thrive. Or their wives and daughters are forced to prostitute to survive. These flee to the United States because it represents freedom and a better life. Not only for them but for those they leave behind to whom they often send money. They come here to work, most often honest jobs and trades when they could do something illegal at home, they break an outdated law that needs reformed here to work a decent honest job. Who would want to force them to return to conditions like those listed? Paul wouldn't.

Those who have come in here illegally have come in because they want freedom but our immigration law is flawed. It takes too long. It's often too bureaucratic. Anyone who thinks our immigration laws don't need serious reform aren't very informed. Sometimes they are in desperate situations at home and they can't wait forever for processing. Who wants to deal drugs or see one's wife turn tricks for months or years until paperwork is processed? I say that those who are here... are here. We do well to welcome them in. I say grant them citizenship, fine them $200 - $500, and put a 1st degree Misdemeanor on their record. Reform the laws and streamline the process for future would be immigrants.

Everything in our government is too beuracratic, ...its basically just aquainting the immigrants with what we here face all the time

As far as the law being unjust. I say it is not unjust. It wouldn't be unjust if we decided to allow NO immigrants. It's unjust that their government doesn't provide them with good oppurtunities. That is where the unjustice lies. Since there are so many illegal immigrants coming here, maybe their homelands should pay us a "tribute" for their poor use of resources that causes their people to try to illegally come here. The point is that it is not injustice on our part if we turn them away. Nor would it be unjust if we deported every single illegal immigrant. The injustice doesn't fall on our country on this issue no matter how many sob story's you know of. So ultimately it is our country's decision to decide whether we show mercy or not, and we are under no moral or ethical obligation to do either. Regardless of whether we show mercy or not, reform needs to happen on the immigration front.

[Aurelie]

People say: I would be happier if they got here legally and then started the correct process of becoming citizens.

But they are ignorant of immigration laws.

The system offers no legal channel for me to become a legal citizen (I know, I've seen countless immigration lawyers), except through marriage, and I don't want to marry unless it's for real with someone I'll love until I die.

BTY I'm white, college educated, speak English, am self-supporting, pay taxes (taxation without representation!), have a real SS card and driver's license (legal tourists can get them, and I got them when I was on my legal tourist Visa), I pay car insurance, I entered the U.S. legally (my parents brought me here when I was a teenager, on a tourist Visa). I attended an American college, and because I was an international student my parents had to pay about $18,000.00 a year in international student tuitions (yes, we contribute to the economy!). I'm middle class, I tithe, I support missionaries, I donate $$ to worthy Christian ministries etc.

I lived my most formative years here, most of my life, and I consider this country my home because I love America, I love Americans (all my friends are American after all). Also I no longer speak the language of my native country well enough to be employable there. But that's beside the point: I want to keep on living here because i love this country and I am contributing to this country positively. I'm not taking anything away. I'm an illegal immigrant who work hard and pay taxes that support American citizens who don't work and are on welfare...

I'm not a drain on the economy. On the contrary I contribute to it with my spending and taxes, yet can't reap all the benefit of a taxpayer because I'm not a legal citizen (yet). I've never used public services I haven't paid for (I'm a taxpayer like you). I'm healthy and never had to go to the hospital. When I go to the doctor or the dentist, I pay the amount in full with my own money.

Yes, I want to correct my status. But as of today, there is no correct process for me to become a legal citizen and the only legal way current immigration laws gives me is through marriage (a real marriage, otherwise that would be fraud). But so far marriage has not happened to me.

Why would it be wrong for the government to change immigration laws to allow someone like me to become a U.S. citizen (without having to get married. I want to get married like most singles do, but haven't found the right person yet)?

I believe the laws that prevent someone with my qualifications to become an American citizen are unjust (taxation without representation, hello?) and need to be changed.

One funny thing: One of my former customers published a newsletter that attacked illegal immigrants (the usual stereotypes: they are uneducated, don't pay taxes, are criminals etc.). He didn't know I was an illegal immigrant. He paid me to print, collate, fold, and mail his newsletter. So he railed against illegal immigrants, yet he was using my services because of my competitive prices. And the reason why my prices were competitive is because I can't get a white collar desk job my college education prepared me for because of my illegal status.
So he was complaining about illegal immigration while enjoying the benefits of it. Typical...

And please don't ask me where I am from. It's irrelevant. What does it matter if I'm Latin, Asian, European, or something else?

Aurelie
PS: I'm not sure if I'll continue posting here. I just thought my real life example could help some of you stop lumping all I.I. together, and help you stop thinking we all neatly fit into the stereotypical mold.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Aurelie

People say: I would be happier if they got here legally and then started the correct process of becoming citizens.

But they are ignorant of immigration laws.

The system offers no legal channel for me to become a legal citizen (I know, I've seen countless immigration lawyers), except through marriage, and I don't want to marry unless it's for real with someone I'll love until I die.

BTY I'm white, college educated, speak English, am self-supporting, pay taxes (taxation without representation!), have a real SS card and driver's license (legal tourists can get them, and I got them when I was on my legal tourist Visa), I pay car insurance, I entered the U.S. legally (my parents brought me here when I was a teenager, on a tourist Visa). I attended an American college, and because I was an international student my parents had to pay about $18,000.00 a year in international student tuitions (yes, we contribute to the economy!). I'm middle class, I tithe, I support missionaries, I donate $$ to worthy Christian ministries etc.

I lived my most formative years here, most of my life, and I consider this country my home because I love America, I love Americans (all my friends are American after all). Also I no longer speak the language of my native country well enough to be employable there. But that's beside the point: I want to keep on living here because i love this country and I am contributing to this country positively. I'm not taking anything away. I'm an illegal immigrant who work hard and pay taxes that support American citizens who don't work and are on welfare...

I'm not a drain on the economy. On the contrary I contribute to it with my spending and taxes, yet can't reap all the benefit of a taxpayer because I'm not a legal citizen (yet). I've never used public services I haven't paid for (I'm a taxpayer like you). I'm healthy and never had to go to the hospital. When I go to the doctor or the dentist, I pay the amount in full with my own money.

Yes, I want to correct my status. But as of today, there is no correct process for me to become a legal citizen and the only legal way current immigration laws gives me is through marriage (a real marriage, otherwise that would be fraud). But so far marriage has not happened to me.

Why would it be wrong for the government to change immigration laws to allow someone like me to become a U.S. citizen (without having to get married. I want to get married like most singles do, but haven't found the right person yet)?

I believe the laws that prevent someone with my qualifications to become an American citizen are unjust (taxation without representation, hello?) and need to be changed.

One funny thing: One of my former customers published a newsletter that attacked illegal immigrants (the usual stereotypes: they are uneducated, don't pay taxes, are criminals etc.). He didn't know I was an illegal immigrant. He paid me to print, collate, fold, and mail his newsletter. So he railed against illegal immigrants, yet he was using my services because of my competitive prices. And the reason why my prices were competitive is because I can't get a white collar desk job my college education prepared me for because of my illegal status.
So he was complaining about illegal immigration while enjoying the benefits of it. Typical...

And please don't ask me where I am from. It's irrelevant. What does it matter if I'm Latin, Asian, European, or something else?

Aurelie
PS: I'm not sure if I'll continue posting here. I just thought my real life example could help some of you stop lumping all I.I. together, and help you stop thinking we all neatly fit into the stereotypical mold.

Thank you for sharing your personal experience Aurelie. I do hope that you find that special someone some day. I also hope that most who read your post see that they've been socially conditioned to mis-characterize illegal immigrants. You're story is one I've heard over and over and over from those that I know who are in a similar situation. Our immigration laws need serious reform to help people like you. Of course most here hate you. They'd like to see you shot or deported without mercy, without grace, without a sense of basic human rights, and the entitlement of liberty and justice for all. You see I think that phrase is important... liberty AND justice. When most salivating conservatives say "justice" they think of criminalization and penalty. Justice is also just law that aids in the human cause, that protects and ensures the entitlement of human rights. You're experiencing first hand the injustice of an outdated system that needs serious reform. It's an unjust system of laws. And when laws are unjust, it's our duty to make them just and it should come as no surprise that human beings seeking freedom break unjust laws.

[simplyme]

Originally Posted by Aurelie

People say: I would be happier if they got here legally and then started the correct process of becoming citizens.

But they are ignorant of immigration laws.

The system offers no legal channel for me to become a legal citizen (I know, I've seen countless immigration lawyers), except through marriage, and I don't want to marry unless it's for real with someone I'll love until I die.

BTY I'm white, college educated, speak English, am self-supporting, pay taxes (taxation without representation!), have a real SS card and driver's license (legal tourists can get them, and I got them when I was on my legal tourist Visa), I pay car insurance, I entered the U.S. legally (my parents brought me here when I was a teenager, on a tourist Visa). I attended an American college, and because I was an international student my parents had to pay about $18,000.00 a year in international student tuitions (yes, we contribute to the economy!). I'm middle class, I tithe, I support missionaries, I donate $$ to worthy Christian ministries etc.

I lived my most formative years here, most of my life, and I consider this country my home because I love America, I love Americans (all my friends are American after all). Also I no longer speak the language of my native country well enough to be employable there. But that's beside the point: I want to keep on living here because i love this country and I am contributing to this country positively. I'm not taking anything away. I'm an illegal immigrant who work hard and pay taxes that support American citizens who don't work and are on welfare...

I'm not a drain on the economy. On the contrary I contribute to it with my spending and taxes, yet can't reap all the benefit of a taxpayer because I'm not a legal citizen (yet). I've never used public services I haven't paid for (I'm a taxpayer like you). I'm healthy and never had to go to the hospital. When I go to the doctor or the dentist, I pay the amount in full with my own money.

Yes, I want to correct my status. But as of today, there is no correct process for me to become a legal citizen and the only legal way current immigration laws gives me is through marriage (a real marriage, otherwise that would be fraud). But so far marriage has not happened to me.

Why would it be wrong for the government to change immigration laws to allow someone like me to become a U.S. citizen (without having to get married. I want to get married like most singles do, but haven't found the right person yet)?

I believe the laws that prevent someone with my qualifications to become an American citizen are unjust (taxation without representation, hello?) and need to be changed.

One funny thing: One of my former customers published a newsletter that attacked illegal immigrants (the usual stereotypes: they are uneducated, don't pay taxes, are criminals etc.). He didn't know I was an illegal immigrant. He paid me to print, collate, fold, and mail his newsletter. So he railed against illegal immigrants, yet he was using my services because of my competitive prices. And the reason why my prices were competitive is because I can't get a white collar desk job my college education prepared me for because of my illegal status.
So he was complaining about illegal immigration while enjoying the benefits of it. Typical...

And please don't ask me where I am from. It's irrelevant. What does it matter if I'm Latin, Asian, European, or something else?

Aurelie
PS: I'm not sure if I'll continue posting here. I just thought my real life example could help some of you stop lumping all I.I. together, and help you stop thinking we all neatly fit into the stereotypical mold.

I doubt anyone thought that, no need to take it personal. IF you have decided to pay taxes (without representation as you continue to add) then that is your decision to go along with it., it doesn't matter to ME where you're from, so you've assumed something personal once more.
Some HAVE said though, that it is certain that immigration laws need to be changed, I even believe that., and I lament that the current ones make it so difficult, even impossible, for those wanting so badly to legally become citizens..to legally do so, I am one to admit that I do not know all the laws pertaining to citizenship., though I do know several from my church that have gone through all the necessary channels to obtain legal citizenship, that have said it IS a long drawn out process.
Hopefully before long, you too will be able to become a legal citizen I will pray for that.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Everything in our government is too beuracratic, ...its basically just aquainting the immigrants with what we here face all the time

As far as the law being unjust. I say it is not unjust. It wouldn't be unjust if we decided to allow NO immigrants. It's unjust that their government doesn't provide them with good oppurtunities. That is where the unjustice lies. Since there are so many illegal immigrants coming here, maybe their homelands should pay us a "tribute" for their poor use of resources that causes their people to try to illegally come here. The point is that it is not injustice on our part if we turn them away. Nor would it be unjust if we deported every single illegal immigrant. The injustice doesn't fall on our country on this issue no matter how many sob story's you know of. So ultimately it is our country's decision to decide whether we show mercy or not, and we are under no moral or ethical obligation to do either. Regardless of whether we show mercy or not, reform needs to happen on the immigration front.

There's a fundamental disagreement between us. You see, you see Freedom as something granted by the government, therefore the government has the right to deny Freedom and liberty in our land to any it chooses. You probably see principles of Liberty that we embraced granted by the Constitution also. This would cause you to believe that non-citizens aren't entitled to the Freedoms protected by the Constitution.

I believe differently. I believe that the Freedom we enjoy in our nation is an inalienable God given human right entitled to ALL regardless of where they come from. Our ancestors fled here seeking the Freedoms we enjoy... many of them stole land from Native Americans and butchered them (I know it's not one sided, atrocities were committed by Native Americans too). However, my ancestry is Dutch, Irish, English, and German. I cannot fathom supporting a bureaucratic monstrosity that would have criminalized my ancestors, and in fact, criminalizes all who seek Freedom who do not have the privilege of following the established process.

[simplyme]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Everything in our government is too beuracratic, ...its basically just aquainting the immigrants with what we here face all the time

As far as the law being unjust. I say it is not unjust. It wouldn't be unjust if we decided to allow NO immigrants. It's unjust that their government doesn't provide them with good oppurtunities. That is where the unjustice lies. Since there are so many illegal immigrants coming here, maybe their homelands should pay us a "tribute" for their poor use of resources that causes their people to try to illegally come here. The point is that it is not injustice on our part if we turn them away. Nor would it be unjust if we deported every single illegal immigrant. The injustice doesn't fall on our country on this issue no matter how many sob story's you know of. So ultimately it is our country's decision to decide whether we show mercy or not, and we are under no moral or ethical obligation to do either. Regardless of whether we show mercy or not, reform needs to happen on the immigration front.

EXCELLENT POST, it is in keeping with what I said earlier, too.
MEXICO should be made by UNITED STATES to either do something to keep
their citizens there, (whatever happened to responsibility) OR repay this
country for the resources expended both for border enforcement AND other basic human care costs.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by simplyme

EXCELLENT POST, it is in keeping with what I said earlier, too.
MEXICO should be made by UNITED STATES to either do something to keep
their citizens there, (whatever happened to responsibility) OR repay this
country for the resources expended both for border enforcement AND other basic human care costs.

I'd just be happy if we solved the illegal immigration problem in a good way.

I have another far out there theory. We could take over mexico and turn it into corn fields that we could use for fuel. That way they could get jobs at home and we would have less dependence on foreign oil