Your answer to illegal immigration.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's an ethical question....

Is wanting to be free a criminal act?

What a question....

Of course not. It's the entering illegally that's the criminal act.

There are THOUSANDS who want to be free and come to the US LEGALLY.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by n david

What a question....

Of course not. It's the entering illegally that's the criminal act.

There are THOUSANDS who want to be free and come to the US LEGALLY.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's an ethical question....

Is wanting to be free a criminal act?

Nothing wrong with wanting to be free. Doing so by breaking the law is a criminal act!

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

No more than wanting to have sex.

It depends on how one goes about it.



The problem with Christians taking a "soft" stance on illegal immigration is that, inevitably, that soft position will cause one to compromise on sin.

Either it is sin to break the natural laws that do not violate the Bible or not.

Yes, God forgives, but it can't be the norm for Christians to sin-- that would be called lasciviousness, right?

So eventually, the Holy Ghost filled illegal alien Christians should be expected and encouraged to do right by the law and correct their status-- even if it means they have to go back to wherever they came from, which is the option I prefer for ALL illegal aliens.



Is there any other sin that we can tolerate, excuse, brush under the rug, act like it's not an issue? Or maybe I'm being legalistic.

Maybe we should start classifying sins into categories of "abominable", "very wicked", "evil", "slightly sinful", and "sinful but understandable."




Based off of basic Biblical concepts of right and wrong and the account of Philemon, illegal aliens, Christians or not, should leave on their own accord or be "escorted" out, if necessary.

No one is perfect, and I need God's Grace daily.
I forgive those who offend me and I work at not holding grudges.

But I am not wrong to call sin what it is.
I am not wrong to excuse it.

I love everybody.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

No more than wanting to have sex.

It depends on how one goes about it.



The problem with Christians taking a "soft" stance on illegal immigration is that, inevitably, that soft position will cause one to compromise on sin.

Either it is sin to break the natural laws that do not violate the Bible or not.

Yes, God forgives, but it can't be the norm for Christians to sin-- that would be called lasciviousness, right?

So eventually, the Holy Ghost filled illegal alien Christians should be expected and encouraged to do right by the law and correct their status-- even if it means they have to go back to wherever they came from, which is the option I prefer for ALL illegal aliens.



Is there any other sin that we can tolerate, excuse, brush under the rug, act like it's not an issue? Or maybe I'm being legalistic.

Maybe we should start classifying sins into categories of "abominable", "very wicked", "evil", "slightly sinful", and "sinful but understandable."




Based off of basic Biblical concepts of right and wrong and the account of Philemon, illegal aliens, Christians or not, should leave on their own accord or be "escorted" out, if necessary.

No one is perfect, and I need God's Grace daily.
I forgive those who offend me and I work at not holding grudges.

But I am not wrong to call sin what it is.
I am not wrong to excuse it.

I love everybody.

I see what you're saying and where you're coming from. I can also agree that you're take on it has a lot of logic. But here's my point of departure....

If a law is unjust or cannot be enforced the law itself is unjust. For example, if they outlawed owning a Bible. It would be our duty to break the law and resist authority. Or if America adopted a mandatory abortion policy like China's it would be our duty to break the law and resist authority. For example it was Christian duty to resist authority and even help black slaves escape to freedom from the plantations of the South.

I don't think your reference to Philemon is well thought out. Here's why. Philemon was a wealthy slave owner, and a Christian. He may have even been a leader in the local church of Colossae because Paul's letter indicates that he had meetings in his home (Go house churchers! Go house churchers! Woop! Woop!). Anyway, Onesimus, one of Philemon's slaves, takes money from Philemon and escapes. Eventually Onesimus becomes a Christian and now Paul admonishes Philemon to forgive Onesimus and take him back as his Christian brother. I question if Paul would have had Onesimus return to Philemon if Philemon was an abusive tyrant. The comparison fails.

These are men and women seeking freedom. They often live in oppressed countries where drug lords gun people down in the streets and the poverty is so bad they would have to sell drugs or get into illegal business to thrive. Or their wives and daughters are forced to prostitute to survive. These flee to the United States because it represents freedom and a better life. Not only for them but for those they leave behind to whom they often send money. They come here to work, most often honest jobs and trades when they could do something illegal at home, they break an outdated law that needs reformed here to work a decent honest job. Who would want to force them to return to conditions like those listed? Paul wouldn't.

Those who have come in here illegally have come in because they want freedom but our immigration law is flawed. It takes too long. It's often too bureaucratic. Anyone who thinks our immigration laws don't need serious reform aren't very informed. Sometimes they are in desperate situations at home and they can't wait forever for processing. Who wants to deal drugs or see one's wife turn tricks for months or years until paperwork is processed? I say that those who are here... are here. We do well to welcome them in. I say grant them citizenship, fine them $200 - $500, and put a 1st degree Misdemeanor on their record. Reform the laws and streamline the process for future would be immigrants.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

What a question....

Of course not. It's the entering illegally that's the criminal act.

There are THOUSANDS who want to be free and come to the US LEGALLY.

What if your name was Jose and you lived in a country where you had virtually no education and most of the people you knew who were making a decent living were dealing drugs and pimping women. You're married and you've lost work and are about to deplete what little savings you have left. You can't find a good paying job anywhere at home that will help you make ends meet. What jobs you can do are slave labor that have unreasonable hours and only pay a pittance. Your wife is scared and your kids are scared. You borrowed money to keep your dingy apartment and to buy groceries. Now the loan shark is threatening your family. One night while talking you and your spouse are staring at the ceiling wondering what you can do. Suddenly it comes to you... you have a cousin Rico in America who would let you stay at his house... you could find good paying work and send money home for your family to live on and pay off the loan shark...all you have to do is sneak across the boarder.

Would you say it would be okay for this person to deal drugs to make ends meet until his immigration paperwork goes through? Or to prostitute his wife or pimp women until he gets all his paperwork goes through? This guy's desperate and so is his family. Any man in his right mind would sneak in here.

Yes, you also have a Canadian named Margret who's been waiting patiently for months for her immigration paperwork to go through. She lives in a middle class apartment in Toronto and works with Systran Technologies. She has a sister who got laid off but is drawing unemployment from the Provincial Unemployment program who is also wanting to immigrate to the United States. She's flat out outraged that Jose has the audacity to break immigration law because she's waited so patiently.

Every situation is different and the two often don't compare.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I see what you're saying and where you're coming from. I can also agree that you're take on it has a lot of logic. But here's my point of departure....

If a law is unjust or cannot be enforced the law itself is unjust. For example, if they outlawed owning a Bible. It would be our duty to break the law and resist authority. Or if America adopted a mandatory abortion policy like China's it would be our duty to break the law and resist authority. For example it was Christian duty to resist authority and even help black slaves escape to freedom from the plantations of the South.

I don't think your reference to Philemon is well thought out. Here's why. Philemon was a wealthy slave owner, and a Christian. He may have even been a leader in the local church of Colossae because Paul's letter indicates that he had meetings in his home (Go house churchers! Go house churchers! Woop! Woop!). Anyway, Onesimus, one of Philemon's slaves, takes money from Philemon and escapes. Eventually Onesimus becomes a Christian and now Paul admonishes Philemon to forgive Onesimus and take him back as his Christian brother. I question if Paul would have had Onesimus return to Philemon if Philemon was an abusive tyrant. The comparison fails.

These are men and women seeking freedom. They often live in oppressed countries where drug lords gun people down in the streets and the poverty is so bad they would have to sell drugs or get into illegal business to thrive. Or their wives and daughters are forced to prostitute to survive. These flee to the United States because it represents freedom and a better life. Not only for them but for those they leave behind to whom they often send money. They come here to work, most often honest jobs and trades when they could do something illegal at home, they break an outdated law that needs reformed here to work a decent honest job. Who would want to force them to return to conditions like those listed? Paul wouldn't.

Those who have come in here illegally have come in because they want freedom but our immigration law is flawed. It takes too long. It's often too bureaucratic. Anyone who thinks our immigration laws don't need serious reform aren't very informed. Sometimes they are in desperate situations at home and they can't wait forever for processing. Who wants to deal drugs or see one's wife turn tricks for months or years until paperwork is processed? I say that those who are here... are here. We do well to welcome them in. I say grant them citizenship, fine them $200 - $500, and put a 1st degree Misdemeanor on their record. Reform the laws and streamline the process for future would be immigrants.

Everything in our government is too beuracratic, ...its basically just aquainting the immigrants with what we here face all the time

As far as the law being unjust. I say it is not unjust. It wouldn't be unjust if we decided to allow NO immigrants. It's unjust that their government doesn't provide them with good oppurtunities. That is where the unjustice lies. Since there are so many illegal immigrants coming here, maybe their homelands should pay us a "tribute" for their poor use of resources that causes their people to try to illegally come here. The point is that it is not injustice on our part if we turn them away. Nor would it be unjust if we deported every single illegal immigrant. The injustice doesn't fall on our country on this issue no matter how many sob story's you know of. So ultimately it is our country's decision to decide whether we show mercy or not, and we are under no moral or ethical obligation to do either. Regardless of whether we show mercy or not, reform needs to happen on the immigration front.

[Aurelie]

People say: I would be happier if they got here legally and then started the correct process of becoming citizens.

But they are ignorant of immigration laws.

The system offers no legal channel for me to become a legal citizen (I know, I've seen countless immigration lawyers), except through marriage, and I don't want to marry unless it's for real with someone I'll love until I die.

BTY I'm white, college educated, speak English, am self-supporting, pay taxes (taxation without representation!), have a real SS card and driver's license (legal tourists can get them, and I got them when I was on my legal tourist Visa), I pay car insurance, I entered the U.S. legally (my parents brought me here when I was a teenager, on a tourist Visa). I attended an American college, and because I was an international student my parents had to pay about $18,000.00 a year in international student tuitions (yes, we contribute to the economy!). I'm middle class, I tithe, I support missionaries, I donate $$ to worthy Christian ministries etc.

I lived my most formative years here, most of my life, and I consider this country my home because I love America, I love Americans (all my friends are American after all). Also I no longer speak the language of my native country well enough to be employable there. But that's beside the point: I want to keep on living here because i love this country and I am contributing to this country positively. I'm not taking anything away. I'm an illegal immigrant who work hard and pay taxes that support American citizens who don't work and are on welfare...

I'm not a drain on the economy. On the contrary I contribute to it with my spending and taxes, yet can't reap all the benefit of a taxpayer because I'm not a legal citizen (yet). I've never used public services I haven't paid for (I'm a taxpayer like you). I'm healthy and never had to go to the hospital. When I go to the doctor or the dentist, I pay the amount in full with my own money.

Yes, I want to correct my status. But as of today, there is no correct process for me to become a legal citizen and the only legal way current immigration laws gives me is through marriage (a real marriage, otherwise that would be fraud). But so far marriage has not happened to me.

Why would it be wrong for the government to change immigration laws to allow someone like me to become a U.S. citizen (without having to get married. I want to get married like most singles do, but haven't found the right person yet)?

I believe the laws that prevent someone with my qualifications to become an American citizen are unjust (taxation without representation, hello?) and need to be changed.

One funny thing: One of my former customers published a newsletter that attacked illegal immigrants (the usual stereotypes: they are uneducated, don't pay taxes, are criminals etc.). He didn't know I was an illegal immigrant. He paid me to print, collate, fold, and mail his newsletter. So he railed against illegal immigrants, yet he was using my services because of my competitive prices. And the reason why my prices were competitive is because I can't get a white collar desk job my college education prepared me for because of my illegal status.
So he was complaining about illegal immigration while enjoying the benefits of it. Typical...

And please don't ask me where I am from. It's irrelevant. What does it matter if I'm Latin, Asian, European, or something else?

Aurelie
PS: I'm not sure if I'll continue posting here. I just thought my real life example could help some of you stop lumping all I.I. together, and help you stop thinking we all neatly fit into the stereotypical mold.

[Nitehawk013]

I hope you don't really expect any of us to believe that the only way for you to legally become a citizen is to marry a citizen.

That is poppycock!

[jfrog]

I love it when non-citizens tell us it's wrong for us not to let them become citizens. There are many countries in the world that have stricter standards on immigration than the U.S.A. Germany won't even let americans work there unless they are doing a job that german's can't do. Yes even on our army bases over there. The germans are the ones checking I.D. at the gate...

Immigration is up to the country to decide who it lets in and who it doesn't. You don't have a right to live wherever you want to. Neither do I as an American. There are many countries that wouldn't let me become a citizen even if I wanted to. There is nothing wrong with this. Should we allow more people to become legal immigrants. I don't really have a problem with the idea right now. But, this argument about its a person's right to live in the country they want to is getting a little old.