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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
So in your opinion the day of the Lord happened in the first century?
You are on record as saying you believe in a future coming based on 1 Thess. 4.
Lets look there a minute.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thess. 4:15-18
So far so good. This is the rapture. We both agree on this.
But Mike please consider THE NEXT TWO VERSES.
1: But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2: For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1 Thess. 5:1-2 |
I have actually dealt with this very point elsewhere 'round here.
Let me repeat my same thought in three different ways so as to make my point clear:
I believe the context is saying that we know not the times or seasons of the rapture any more than we know the times and seasons of the separate and distinct judgment to come in our generation.
It's like he is saying, "We do not know the time when the rapture will occur. And speaking of the time for the rapture, you already know the principle of not knowing the hour something will occur from the other and distinct unrelated issue of coming judgment."
We do not need to know when the rapture will take place for we already understand the principle of not knowing times and seasons due to our awareness of the other issue regarding judgment.
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This is EXPRESSLY called the day of the Lord!
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I believe the rapture in chapter 4 is not the same subject in chapter 5 at all. I believe Paul only mentioned the subject matter of chapter 5 as an example of not needing to know the timing of the rapture.
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Now you are saying the day of the Lord (rapture) has already occured.
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Nope.
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Peter says this:
3: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4: And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5: For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11: Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12: Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2 Peter 3:3-12
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Peter spoke of AD70 as well.
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The Apostle warns about scoffers walking after their own lusts. He then warns the saints that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. In other words it MIGHT still be a long time.
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More correctly he meant that a prophecy fulfilled a day after it was given or one thousand years after it was given is no cause for anyone to think it will be less likely to occur if it is not fulfilled in one day. He is not saying it may be a long time. The fact was, IT WAS ALREADY long enough that scoffers were scoffing about it in Peter's day.
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Verse 10 in the exact context of his coming again he calls this the DAY OF THE LORD coming like a thief. The same phrase Paul used to describe the event commonly called the rapture.
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No. I already explained that.
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In that context which you say happened in the first century Peter said in that day the Heavens would pass away, the elements would melt the Earth and its works would be burned.
So the Lord has come and raptured his people? The Heavens and Earth passed away? The elements have melted with fervent heat?
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No no no. the rapture is not the day of the Lord. And the elements melting is a Hebraism for Old Covenant passing. Compare ...
Hebrews 1:10-12 KJV And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: (11) They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; (12) And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Hebrews 8:13 KJV In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The following verse uses creation language, much like
2 Cor 5 speaks of christians as new creation, in speaking of covenant people.
Isaiah 51:16 KJV And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
You need to research the phraseology used in these passages with their use throughout the Old Testament, brother.
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