Deceiving the Elect - if it were possible. Pre-trib?
Why does Jesus suggest, via the highlighted clause, that deceiving the elect won't be possible during this time of his coming and the end of the world?
Is it because they won't be there because they will have already been raptured away?
Already martyred?
Or because in those days the qualifications for "the elect" will be much more stringent, and the elect will be so spiritually attuned that absolutely nothing can get past them?
Quote:
Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
__________________
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However, I have always thought of it as being God has to shorten the days to keep them from being deceived.
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__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
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Why does Jesus suggest, via the highlighted clause, that deceiving the elect won't be possible during this time of his coming and the end of the world?
Is it because they won't be there because they will have already been raptured away?
Already martyred?
Or because in those days the qualifications for "the elect" will be much more stringent, and the elect will be so spiritually attuned that absolutely nothing can get past them?
From a Calvinist/Evangelical perspective the explanation would be:
God has already foreseen the success of "the elect" so from a divine perspective it is impossible to deceive this group. God knows that they will be saved and cannot ever be "lost". Here Christ is merely emphasizing how great the deception will be, so great that if it were possible to deceive "the elect" then it would do so.
From the Arminian/Wesleyan/Holiness tradition:
God will provide some means that will empower "the elect" so that they may freely choose to avoid the deception.
The statement is open ended enough that you could fit a "secret rapture" doctrine at just about any point on a time line - if that's where you were going with this.
IMHO- you would need to correlate other passages to nail down any pre, mid or post - Trib rapture. This statement alone seems to tantalize a predestination vs. free will debate.
However, I have always thought of it as being God has to shorten the days to keep them from being deceived.
The reason that those days will be shortened is not to keep anyone from being deceived. The Scripture tells us why, and that is that except those days were shortened, no flesh would survive. Not just the elect, but no flesh would survive what is happening upon the earth at that time.
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Paul very plainly said that what Jesus predicted had actually come to pass in his own day. Writing in A.D. 64 he mentioned "the gospel, which ye have heard, and WHICH WAS PREACHED TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN" (Colossians 1:23)
"...your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Romans 1:8).
Romans 10:18, "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound when into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."
Paul states again in Romans 16:25-26, "... my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ...now is made manifest, and ...made known to ALL NATIONS for the obedience of faith."
And in 70 A.D. that end came, the end of that age. Those days were "shortened" and the elected flee the city to safety.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
Yours is a wonderfully complicated question. Unfortunately OP theology has chosen to overtly ignore this question. I was in a meeting once with several of our "top guns" and the chief editor asked for two things:
1) A real systematic Christology from a Oneness perspective.
2) A OP elucidation of "election."
It's been over 15 years, almost 20 and no one has answered.
An unnamed UPC official gave me a couple of books many years ago that I would highly recommend; Robert Shank's Life in the Son and Elect in the Son. The publication of the first book caused Dr. Shank to lose his teaching position at a premiere Baptist seminary and raised a lot of fuss at the time.
I wore out the originals that I had and passed them along and have given out several others. You can find these in most large Christian bookstores or order them online. They have answered my many questions about "election," predestination and that whole controversy- all from a holiness tradition.
Yours is a wonderfully complicated question. Unfortunately OP theology has chosen to overtly ignore this question. I was in a meeting once with several of our "top guns" and the chief editor asked for two things:
1) A real systematic Christology from a Oneness perspective.
2) A OP elucidation of "election."
It's been over 15 years, almost 20 and no one has answered.
An unnamed UPC official gave me a couple of books many years ago that I would highly recommend; Robert Shank's Life in the Son and Elect in the Son. The publication of the first book caused Dr. Shank to lose his teaching position at a premiere Baptist seminary and raised a lot of fuss at the time.
I wore out the originals that I had and passed them along and have given out several others. You can find these in most large Christian bookstores or order them online. They have answered my many questions about "election," predestination and that whole controversy- all from a holiness tradition.
Aren't the elect those whom God foreknew would chose to walk in truth? And because of His foreknowledge, He predestined, called, justified, and glorified?
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
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Paul very plainly said that what Jesus predicted had actually come to pass in his own day. Writing in A.D. 64 he mentioned "the gospel, which ye have heard, and WHICH WAS PREACHED TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN" (Colossians
Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak
1:23)
"...your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Romans 1:8).
Romans 10:18, "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound when (sic) into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."
Paul states again in Romans 16:25-26, "... my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ...now is made manifest, and ...made known to ALL NATIONS for the obedience of faith."
And in 70 A.D. that end came, the end of that age. Those days were "shortened" and the elected flee the city to safety.
I do not want to pick a preterist fight here; I find preterism to be preferable to other systems. However, I think the attempt to use Paul's words above to say that "the Gospel" was preached to the ends of the earth comes up a little short.
Did the Han dynasty of China know of the Christian faith of the Romans? Did the Buddha, whose message was first being preached at this same time, know of and mention the Gospel preached by Paul? Obviously not.
So, either Paul was gravely mistaken about the extent of "the earth..." (a very real possibility), or he may have just been using a figure of speech known as an ellipsis.
Another example of an ellipsis: In Philippians 4:13, Paul states: "I can do all things through Christ..." Does he mean to be saying, ALL THINGS? Can we rob a bank in Christ and Jesus will help us to get away with it? Can we cheat on our taxes and expect the power of Christ to get us off? (Apparently YEC Kent Hovind believed this, but you know how that worked out).
No. Paul doesn't really mean ALL THINGS here in Philippians. He means "all those things that the Father would have us to do." However, he was trying to appeal to people's emotions here and encourage them. So he uses an elliptical phrase as an alternative to hyperbole. He makes use of this same device in the statements quoted above.
To take Paul's other uses of this figure of speech and then to try and tie them into the statements of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 is bad exegesis, in my view. The Gospel had not been preached "to all the world..." in the first century A.D. A look at any globe will tell you that.
But perhaps the events in the first century, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in the year 70, serve to prefigure of the final end, which is still to come. Bible prophecy does work itself out in repeated cycles of prefigurement and then final fulfillment.
My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. 
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