The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Jeffrey]

Memo to self: Refrain from other "non-biblical" words that help us communicate theology like soteriology, eschatology, missiology, pericopes, hermeneutics... let's just quote scripture. LOL Boy, those words really rubbed you in a funny way.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Memo to self: Refrain from other "non-biblical" words that help us communicate theology like soteriology, eschatology, missiology, pericopes, hermeneutics... let's just quote scripture. LOL Boy, those words really rubbed you in a funny way.

LOL!

I looked at this again. Another website explained it in more detail. Basically, they are calling "sanctification" the "crises experiment" which was taught by John Wesley. He taught that you needed a deeper surrender and deeper consecration after you were saved in order to become spirit filled. I suppose he is just trying to explain what sanctification means to him.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

LOL!

I looked at this again. Another website explained it in more detail. Basically, they are calling "sanctification" the "crises experiment" which was taught by John Wesley. He taught that you needed a deeper surrender and deeper consecration after you were saved in order to become spirit filled. I suppose he is just trying to explain what sanctification means to him.

You have to keep in mind however, that the teachings of Wesley laid the foundation for the entire Holiness Movement. What we are today is a large part due to the "forum debates" that Wesley had with others; such as George Whitefield.

Wesley, with his teaching of "Entire Sanctification" founded the Holiness Movement. Debates then raged for over 100 years about "How do you know that you've been sanctified?" As people continued to pray and seek God, such things as Charles G. Finney's "anxiety bench" were introduced (he didn't call it that but the name stuck anyhow).

Finney used to bring out an old bench and place it at the front of the church and exhort members of his audience to come forward to kneel in front of the bench and to pray until "conviction fell." This is generally considered the origin of today's altar calls.

But folks were still casting about trying to find a final answer to Wesley's quest as outline here: http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com...Perfectio.html

Read the numbered points in the article. They are an excellent outline that trace Wesley's thoughts over the course of the development of the idea of "Sinless Perfection." This was the "Holy Grail" of the Holiness Movement.

But human nature being what it is, few people found a way to accomplish this state for an extended period of time - especially in their youths. So ministers were anxious to find some sort of "mark" or a sign" that their converts and parishioners had finally "arrived."

Folks experienced things they called "The Baptism of Fire" and "The Baptism of the Holy Ghost" - but experiences varied across the country and it was difficult to get the Holiness Movement as a whole behind any one phenomena.

Enter Charles Fox Parham. He became convinced that the state of "sinless perfection" could be achieved by the experience of the "infilling of the Holy Spirit." But again, how would you know objectively that someone had received the "infilling" or the baptism of the Spirit? This is where his idea of "speaking in other tongues" became the "evidence" of the Spirit's baptism.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

You have to keep in mind however, that the teachings of Wesley laid the foundation for the entire Holiness Movement. What we are today is a large part due to the "forum debates" that Wesley had with others; such as George Whitefield.

Wesley, with his teaching of "Entire Sanctification" founded the Holiness Movement. Debates then raged for over 100 years about "How do you know that you've been sanctified?" As people continued to pray and seek God, such things as Charles G. Finney's "anxiety bench" were introduced (he didn't call it that but the name stuck anyhow).

Finney used to bring out an old bench and place it at the front of the church and exhort members of his audience to come forward to kneel in front of the bench and to pray until "conviction fell." This is generally considered the origin of today's altar calls.

But folks were still casting about trying to find a final answer to Wesley's quest as outline here: http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com...Perfectio.html

Read the numbered points in the article. They are an excellent outline that trace Wesley's thoughts over the course of the development of the idea of "Sinless Perfection." This was the "Holy Grail" of the Holiness Movement.

But human nature being what it is, few people found a way to accomplish this state for an extended period of time - especially in their youths. So ministers were anxious to find some sort of "mark" or a sign" that their converts and parishioners had finally "arrived."

Folks experienced things they called "The Baptism of Fire" and "The Baptism of the Holy Ghost" - but experiences varied across the country and it was difficult to get the Holiness Movement as a whole behind any one phenomena.

Enter Charles Fox Parham. He became convinced that the state of "sinless perfection" could be achieved by the experience of the "infilling of the Holy Spirit." But again, how would you know objectively that someone had received the "infilling" or the baptism of the Spirit? This is where his idea of "speaking in other tongues" became the "evidence" of the Spirit's baptism.

All of that is very interesting - men trying to define and categorize what God is doing and make that work with their experiences.

I remember Bro. Billy Cole being called in as a Charismatic. He would explain the Gospel, sometimes put a chair out, have the person repent, become baptized and then he simply wanted them to believe they would receive the Holy Ghost and they would. He was being tagged as a charismatic for his simple teaching of faith. LOL!

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

All of that is very interesting - men trying to define and categorize what God is doing and make that work with their experiences.

I remember Bro. Billy Cole being called in as a Charismatic. He would explain the Gospel, sometimes put a chair out, have the person repent, become baptized and then he simply wanted them to believe they would receive the Holy Ghost and they would. He was being tagged as a charismatic for his simple teaching of faith. LOL!

Charismatic wasn't a pejorative term always. That's just in the last 20 years. And to some, it's still not pejorative though!

In a matter of genre, Pentecostal/Charismatic go together like a horse and carriage.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by pelathais

You have to keep in mind however, that the teachings of Wesley laid the foundation for the entire Holiness Movement. What we are today is a large part due to the "forum debates" that Wesley had with others; such as George Whitefield.

Wesley, with his teaching of "Entire Sanctification" founded the Holiness Movement. Debates then raged for over 100 years about "How do you know that you've been sanctified?" As people continued to pray and seek God, such things as Charles G. Finney's "anxiety bench" were introduced (he didn't call it that but the name stuck anyhow).

Finney used to bring out an old bench and place it at the front of the church and exhort members of his audience to come forward to kneel in front of the bench and to pray until "conviction fell." This is generally considered the origin of today's altar calls.

But folks were still casting about trying to find a final answer to Wesley's quest as outline here: http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com...Perfectio.html

Read the numbered points in the article. They are an excellent outline that trace Wesley's thoughts over the course of the development of the idea of "Sinless Perfection." This was the "Holy Grail" of the Holiness Movement.

But human nature being what it is, few people found a way to accomplish this state for an extended period of time - especially in their youths. So ministers were anxious to find some sort of "mark" or a sign" that their converts and parishioners had finally "arrived."

Folks experienced things they called "The Baptism of Fire" and "The Baptism of the Holy Ghost" - but experiences varied across the country and it was difficult to get the Holiness Movement as a whole behind any one phenomena.

Enter Charles Fox Parham. He became convinced that the state of "sinless perfection" could be achieved by the experience of the "infilling of the Holy Spirit." But again, how would you know objectively that someone had received the "infilling" or the baptism of the Spirit? This is where his idea of "speaking in other tongues" became the "evidence" of the Spirit's baptism.

Which brings us to the Finished Work doctrine that opposed Wesley's view.

This debate actually still goes on today!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Which brings us to the Finished Work doctrine that opposed Wesley's view.

This debate actually still goes on today!

Yes! William H. Durham was the one who in essence cut the apron strings from the older Holiness Movement (Wesleyan). But in doing so, he rolled over a lot of the baggage - or really, those that followed did.

There was no more need for the "crisis" of sanctification (that others are teasing one another about on this thread). Instead, we have the whole "crisis" rolled up into a single evening... even if that makes for a very long evening, night and into the next morning.

Theologically, it was a great step forward from the endless pursuit of "sinless perfection." However, by picking up so much of the baggage of the Holiness Movement and the whole "You Gotta Earn It and Deserve It" mentality the difference really became more one of semantics, IMHO.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

LOL!

I looked at this again. Another website explained it in more detail. Basically, they are calling "sanctification" the "crises experiment" which was taught by John Wesley. He taught that you needed a deeper surrender and deeper consecration after you were saved in order to become spirit filled. I suppose he is just trying to explain what sanctification means to him.

lol....so, are you going to apologize for giving him such a hard time using a real term?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

lol....so, are you going to apologize for giving him such a hard time using a real term?

No, because one place that I read it was speaking of the second blessing, the Holy Ghost infilling and the "crisis experience". I looked somewhere else to get a better understanding. Sorry to disappoint you.

And, BTW, your post is probably a good example of why I didn't and won't apologize for my previous infraction.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

No, because one place that I read it was speaking of the second blessing, the Holy Ghost infilling and the "crisis experience". I looked somewhere else to get a better understanding. Sorry to disappoint you.

And, BTW, your post is probably a good example of why I didn't and won't apologize for my previous infraction.

Second and Third Blessing. In other words, all of these episodes, whatever you want to call them that suits you personally, refer to a powerful interaction with the Spirit. Wesley believed a similar crisis experience for baptism in the Spirit was what happened for sanctification. Of course his doctrine spun out of control with the Holiness movement and later Pentecostals, and those who believed later that we are imputed (literally) righteousness, which fed into triumphalism and this idea that perfection is realistic, and even a present reality.