The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Whatever "tasks" can be associated with "believing the Gospel" are the only "tasks" required. If someone has to scratch their chin while they ponder the mysteries of salvation before they then act in faith and believe - then "scratching their chin" is a part of their salvation, in a sense. But it would obviously be silly to say that such a thing is a "work" that they must do in order to be saved.

Of course, they had to consume carbohydrates and proteins to get the food energy for their brain cells to function in the first place, and before that their parents had to be introduced at Bible College... the list of such "works" is really an endless chain going back to the very foundation of the world when Jesus Christ chose us to be complete in Him in the first place!

Given that chain of events, well, I guess we have to wrestle with those pesky Calvinistic notions again.

We are to respond to the call of Jesus Christ when He bids us, "Come!" Whatever it takes for a person to metaphorically "get out of their chair" and to follow our Lord - then that's what it takes.

The attempt to cloud the issue by adding the whole confused jargon of "repentance is a work, believing is a work" is a red herring, IMHO. The fact that they will then add, "baptism is a work," men wearing short hair and women uncut hair is a work, wearing hosiery with seams is a work... etc." to what is "required" for salvation shows their true intentions.

Seeking to achieve "balance" the Calvinist would then go all the way back over to God's plan and foreknowledge.

I prefer to just exist in the "here and now" with real people making real choices that will affect their lives (without completely ignoring all the rest).

Belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the standard of salvation. Jesus shed His blood at Calvary for the remission (Matthew 26:28) and as a propitiation (Romans 3:25) for our sins. Propitiation = "atoning sacrifice."

Faith in Jesus Christ (repentance, conversion, whatever you want to call it) is how "the blood is applied" to the door posts and lintels of our hearts.

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. This accounting was done before Abraham had done anything else other than "Come" (leave Haran).

Over time, Abraham's works gave tremendous testimony to his faith (James 2:23), but Abraham was counted as "righteous" before those works were accomplished (Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:3-6 and Galatians 3:6-14).

Oh! I didn't know there was more to that verse...

Count how many times that I've quoted or cited that very passage in this thread. Half a dozen times already? Ten times? Something like that.

And "casting our cares" is another "work" to be added to the long list of "works?"

This is exactly what I been saying, but you've been taking issue with. We simply couldn't do it on our own and there is no way that we can "pay it back." Thus, it is offered freely to all who believe.

Yes, they had to "tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high." But, the blood that cleansed them from sin had already been shed. The "remission" of sins was already in effect (Matthew 26:28).

And they are in fact just the first steps of a life long walk. But the first "step" is faith in the blood of Jesus Christ as the payment for the penalty for our sins. When that faith is utilized, the blood itself is applied.

Are you quoting me accurately here?


If you don't obey the Gospel, you are going to have a fiery end. I guess that is not lovely enough or positive enough to include in a message, huh? lol
Getting into the blood that was shed isn't the most pleasant of topics for many people either, but that's the Gospel.

I believe that our faith is what causes us to obey the Gospel. I don't believe our faith alone saves us. You must also obey. Of course, you cannot have obedience without faith and I don't think true faith would not include obedience.

And as we have discussed, concerning works, I believe these things (repentance and baptism) are actions of obedience and not in the category of a works based faith on the level of the Law - obtaining our own righteousness.

It would be more accurate to the Word to relegate the term "works/toil" - good works - to the things we do after we are saved. And then, again, we must continue in the faith to ultimately have eternal life.

Having faith, we must obey the Gospel. Having salvation, we must continue in that faith.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe that our faith is what causes us to obey the Gospel. I don't believe our faith alone saves us. You must also obey. Of course, you cannot have obedience without faith and I don't think true faith would not include obedience.

And as we have discussed, concerning works, I believe these things (repentance and baptism) are actions of obedience and not in the category of a works based faith on the level of the Law - obtaining our own righteousness.

It would be more accurate to the Word to relegate the term "works/toil" - good works - to the things we do after we are saved. And then, again, we must continue in the faith to ultimately have eternal life.

Having faith, we must obey the Gospel. Having salvation, we must continue in that faith.

Faith is itself obedience to the Gospel. Having a heart converted to faith in Christ IS how one 'obeys the Gospel.'

In Romans 10:16 Paul very clearly connects 'believing the report' (Isaiah 53:1) with obedience to the Gospel.

"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Many miss the fact that the phrase "who hath believed our report" of Isaiah 53:1 is also connected to the heart conversion and healing spoken of in Isaiah 6:10, Matthew 13:15, Mark 4:11-12, John 12:37-40, and Acts 28:23-29. In these passages, the heart that understands and converts is healed (Mark uses "forgiven").

Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17), by hearing the Gospel (Acts 15:7), by believing the report of God which is the record he gave of his son (1John 5:10-13). The heart which hears the Gospel then understands and converts IS HEALED (Isaiah 6:10, Matthew 13:15, Mark 4:11-12, John 12:37-40, and Acts 28:23-29). The understanding and conversion which brings healing is of the heart. The heart which obeys the Gospel, by believing it, is healed/forgiven.

2Thessalonians 1:8 and 1Peter 4:17 should be seen in this light. The obedience to the Gospel IS the obedience of faith (Romans 16:26).

Again, to obey the Gospel is to believe it!


Concerning faith and works: It is in repentance that faith is born. The repentant heart returning to God does so through faith in Jesus Christ. True repentance happens only when the conversion in repentance is to God through Christ. Only when one places faith in the record God gave of His son is one granted life in repentance. Repentance unto life (Acts 11:18) takes place when the one returning to God 'believes' in Christ. He that believes has life (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26).

Those who have life because their hearts have converted back to God through faith in Christ are to bring forth fruits/works meet for repentance [i.e., conversion] (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20) and begin to live a life indicative of one who has indeed turned back to God. The regenerate heart will engender regenerate behavior.

We, who were created in Christ unto good works (Ephesians 2:10), should daily 'work out our own salvation with fear and trembling' (Phillippians 2:12). Meaning, we are to allow the salvation we possess by faith to work itself out in our daily lives with 'fear and trembling' which is a phrase "used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religiously does his utmost to fulfil his duty."

Food for thought....

[Adino]

Bumped for Pressing-On (and/or like positional advocates)...

Me before:

Faith is itself obedience to the Gospel. Having a heart converted to faith in Christ IS how one 'obeys the Gospel.'

In Romans 10:16 Paul very clearly connects 'believing the report' (Isaiah 53:1) with obedience to the Gospel.

"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Many miss the fact that the phrase "who hath believed our report" of Isaiah 53:1 is also connected to the heart conversion and healing spoken of in Isaiah 6:10, Matthew 13:15, Mark 4:11-12, John 12:37-40, and Acts 28:23-29. In these passages, the heart that understands and converts is healed (Mark uses "forgiven").

Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17), by hearing the Gospel (Acts 15:7), by believing the report of God which is the record he gave of his son (1John 5:10-13). The heart which hears the Gospel then understands and converts IS HEALED (Isaiah 6:10, Matthew 13:15, Mark 4:11-12, John 12:37-40, and Acts 28:23-29). The understanding and conversion which brings healing is of the heart. The heart which obeys the Gospel, by believing it, is healed/forgiven.

2Thessalonians 1:8 and 1Peter 4:17 should be seen in this light. The obedience to the Gospel IS the obedience of faith (Romans 16:26).

Again, to obey the Gospel is to believe it!

Do you deny that Scripture teaches a conversion of the heart is adequate 'obedience to the Gospel' to bring about the inner healing spoken of in my referenced passages?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Adino

Bumped for Pressing-On (and/or like positional advocates)...

Me before:

Faith is itself obedience to the Gospel. Having a heart converted to faith in Christ IS how one 'obeys the Gospel.'

In Romans 10:16 Paul very clearly connects 'believing the report' (Isaiah 53:1) with obedience to the Gospel.

"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Many miss the fact that the phrase "who hath believed our report" of Isaiah 53:1 is also connected to the heart conversion and healing spoken of in Isaiah 6:10, Matthew 13:15, Mark 4:11-12, John 12:37-40, and Acts 28:23-29. In these passages, the heart that understands and converts is healed (Mark uses "forgiven").

Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17), by hearing the Gospel (Acts 15:7), by believing the report of God which is the record he gave of his son (1John 5:10-13). The heart which hears the Gospel then understands and converts IS HEALED (Isaiah 6:10, Matthew 13:15, Mark 4:11-12, John 12:37-40, and Acts 28:23-29). The understanding and conversion which brings healing is of the heart. The heart which obeys the Gospel, by believing it, is healed/forgiven.

2Thessalonians 1:8 and 1Peter 4:17 should be seen in this light. The obedience to the Gospel IS the obedience of faith (Romans 16:26).

Again, to obey the Gospel is to believe it!

Do you deny that Scripture teaches a conversion of the heart is adequate 'obedience to the Gospel' to bring about the inner healing spoken of in my referenced passages?

Yes, I deny that scripture teaches a conversion of the heart is "adequate obedience to the Gospel".

The point of Romans 10:1 - "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."

"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." Acts 5:30

"And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:.." Acts 10:39; Acts 13:24-52

Their belief and faith in Jesus Christ needed to be established before they could obey the Gospel. If "having a heart converted to faith in Christ IS how one 'obeys the Gospel", John the Baptist would not have preached a "baptism of repentance", Peter would not have preached what he did on the Day of Pentecost, and God would not have told Cornelius to send for Peter.

To say that what Peter preached is not the Gospel but our response to the Gospel is not totally accurate, IMO. What Peter preached, on the Day of Pentecost, is just as much a part of the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I don't believe you can separate the two - the belief and the obedience or response to.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yes, I deny that scripture teaches a conversion of the heart is "adequate obedience to the Gospel".

The point of Romans 10:1 - "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."

"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." Acts 5:30

"And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:.." Acts 10:39; Acts 13:24-52

Their belief and faith in Jesus Christ needed to be established before they could obey the Gospel. If "having a heart converted to faith in Christ IS how one 'obeys the Gospel", John the Baptist would not have preached a "baptism of repentance", Peter would not have preached what he did on the Day of Pentecost, and God would not have told Cornelius to send for Peter.

To say that what Peter preached is not the Gospel but our response to the Gospel is not totally accurate, IMO. What Peter preached, on the Day of Pentecost, is just as much a part of the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I don't believe you can separate the two - the belief and the obedience or response to.

Please respond to the Scriptures listed, Bro... The Scriptures I listed speak of men 1) hearing the 'report' [notitia] 2) the heart understanding the report [assensus] 3) the heart converting [fudicia] and being healed. Knowledge (notitia) + mental assent (assensus) + trust (fiducia) = FAITH . The faith which came by hearing the word/report brought healing. Healing came with conversion. Do you deny that passing from unbelief to faith is a conversion?

I could approach this another way as well....

Acts 5:32 states that the Holy Ghost is given to those who 'obey' God. Cornelius was given the Holy Ghost in Acts 10. Tell me what Cornelius DID to obey God AFTER he heard the Gospel from Paul?

Paul said in Acts 15:7 that it was by his mouth the Gentiles were to hear the word of the Gospel and believe.

He goes on to say in 15:8 that God 'which knoweth the hearts' gave the Gentiles the Holy Ghost as witness to their belief in the Gospel.

Since the Spirit is given ONLY to those who OBEY God, I ask again... After he heard the Gospel from Paul, what did Cornelius DO as adequate obedience to God in order to fulfil the requirement for Spirit reception? What obedience to the Gospel did he do that resulted in Spirit reception?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Adino

Please respond to the Scriptures listed, Bro... The Scriptures I listed speak of men 1) hearing the 'report' [notitia] 2) the heart understanding the report [assensus] 3) the heart converting [fudicia] and being healed. Knowledge (notitia) + mental assent (assensus) + trust (fiducia) = FAITH . The faith which came by hearing the word/report brought healing. Healing came with conversion. Do you deny that passing from unbelief to faith is a conversion?

I could approach this another way as well....

Acts 5:32 states that the Holy Ghost is given to those who 'obey' God. Cornelius was given the Holy Ghost in Acts 10. Tell me what Cornelius DID to obey God AFTER he heard the Gospel from Paul?

Paul said in Acts 15:7 that it was by his mouth the Gentiles were to hear the word of the Gospel and believe.

He goes on to say in 15:8 that God 'which knoweth the hearts' gave the Gentiles the Holy Ghost as witness to their belief in the Gospel.

Since the Spirit is given ONLY to those who OBEY God, I ask again... After he heard the Gospel from Paul, what did Cornelius DO as adequate obedience to God in order to fulfil the requirement for Spirit reception? What obedience to the Gospel did he do that resulted in Spirit reception?

Adino,
I've stated the basis of what I believe on this thread. If I expanded on that any further I would only be saying the same things over and over only in more detail. I remember talking with you on this subject at NFCF. Neither of us has changed what we believe. So, really, what's the point? There is no point. LOL!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe that our faith is what causes us to obey the Gospel. I don't believe our faith alone saves us. You must also obey. Of course, you cannot have obedience without faith and I don't think true faith would not include obedience.

The title of the thread is "The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save" - not "faith alone..." In our discussion of the cross we obviously need to have some sort of language that will explain how an event 2,000 years ago could even have any sort of impact on our lives today. The way that we "reach across time and space" to place ourselves at the foot of the cross along side the centurion and the repentant thief is through faith.

It is a Calvinist maxim that "faith alone" saves (Sole Fide) and I'm not a Calvinist. Though I do have some respect for that particular strain of thought, I have also noticed that even most Calvinists will scurry to add something like "Faith alone in Jesus Christ alone..." so even they don't really appear to mean "faith alone."

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

And as we have discussed, concerning works, I believe these things (repentance and baptism) are actions of obedience and not in the category of a works based faith on the level of the Law - obtaining our own righteousness.

And I have agreed. They are not.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

It would be more accurate to the Word to relegate the term "works/toil" - good works - to the things we do after we are saved. And then, again, we must continue in the faith to ultimately have eternal life.

Having faith, we must obey the Gospel. Having salvation, we must continue in that faith.

Due to the prevalence of Pauline writings using the word "works" and how that clearly is never applied to repentance (nor even baptism) I chose to just stay away from that application altogether.

Technically, anything that is a verb can be said to also be a "work." Verbs are action words. They describe and action or a response to an action that in itself is just another action anyway. That is why it's important to see how the words and terms are being used in their specific context.

"Believing" is a verb; but it is never described as a "work" in the NT. When people's reasoning has become so broken down that they demand upon expounding this sort of confusion - well, then the least of their problems is the need for an English lesson from me.

I enjoy talking to PO. I think we're both on the same page generally speaking, we just have different ways of articulating it. As you pointed out earlier, I do have my reasons having chosen to take this tack. I also believe that in the long run it will be more beneficial for everyone.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The title of the thread is "The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save" - not "faith alone..." In our discussion of the cross we obviously need to have some sort of language that will explain how an event 2,000 years ago could even have any sort of impact on our lives today. The way that we "reach across time and space" to place ourselves at the foot of the cross along side the centurion and the repentant thief is through faith.

It is a Calvinist maxim that "faith alone" saves (Sole Fide) and I'm not a Calvinist. Though I do have some respect for that particular strain of thought, I have also noticed that even most Calvinists will scurry to add something like "Faith alone in Jesus Christ alone..." so even they don't really appear to mean "faith alone."

If we say, "The Cross of Christ alone can save", then I will have to say that the message Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost is the message of the Cross. It includes what the Cross entailed. I can then agree that the message of the Cross is what saves. That there is no other message.

Due to the prevalence of Pauline writings using the word "works" and how that clearly is never applied to repentance (nor even baptism) I chose to just stay away from that application altogether.

Technically, anything that is a verb can be said to also be a "work." Verbs are action words. They describe and action or a response to an action that in itself is just another action anyway. That is why it's important to see how the words and terms are being used in their specific context.

"Believing" is a verb; but it is never described as a "work" in the NT. When people's reasoning has become so broken down that they demand upon expounding this sort of confusion - well, then the least of their problems is the need for an English lesson from me.

I agree we need to be careful with our wording and explanation of "works".

But, I also want to remember that the Word says that Abraham believed God, had righteousness imputed to him and was called the friend of God. Yet, James states that we see how he was justified by his works and not by faith only. James 2:23-24

Abraham's faith caused him to be obedient. The Bible says that he was not only justified by his faith alone, but by his works. It's hard to read that and not say that our obedience is not a work. If we have obeyed the Gospel, I believe we have done a work. Not in obtaining our own righteousness, but in our obedience to Him.

James also speaks of Rahab being justified by her works, which not only brought her salvation, but into the lineage of David.

I enjoy talking to PO. I think we're both on the same page generally speaking, we just have different ways of articulating it. As you pointed out earlier, I do have my reasons having chosen to take this tack. I also believe that in the long run it will be more beneficial for everyone.

Enjoy talking to you also, Pel. I think we are, generally, on the same page. But, I am a strong proponent of Acts 2:38. If that makes me a three-stepper, than I willingly accept that tag. LOL!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

But, I also want to remember that the Word says that Abraham believed God, had righteousness imputed to him and was called the friend of God. Yet, James states that we see how he was justified by his works and not by faith only. James 2:23-24

James also speaks of Rahab being justified by her works, which not only brought her salvation, but into the lineage of David.

The thing that contrasts James 2:23-24 with Paul's writings in Romans 4 and Galatians 3:6-8, is that James is skipping all the way down to include Genesis 22, in his discussion. Paul is just focusing on what God did and said in Genesis 15.

The point that "One Steppers" tend to want to make is that God has done something in our lives that we were helpless to do for ourselves (our "Genesis 15" experience). Both Paul and James (and everybody else, for that matter) do go on to emphasize the "Genesis 22" experience; but I ("One Steppers" i general) feel that it is still vital to keep reminding ourselves that it was God's grace that got us started on this journey and really it is the same grace that will keep us going.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Enjoy talking to you also, Pel. I think we are, generally, on the same page. But, I am a strong proponent of Acts 2:38. If that makes me a three-stepper, than I willingly accept that tag. LOL!

As a "dyed in the wool One Stepper," I believe like the other "dyed in the wool One Steppers" believe - that secretly all "Three Steppers" are actually "One Steppers" in their heart. LOL.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The thing that contrasts James 2:23-24 with Paul's writings in Romans 4 and Galatians 3:6-8, is that James is skipping all the way down to include Genesis 22, in his discussion. Paul is just focusing on what God did and said in Genesis 15.

I believe that God was introducing the line that Jesus would come through in Gen 15 and 22, which must begin at faith. He separated Abraham from his father's people and brought him to a land that he wanted him to inherit. (Gen. 15:7) Told him a bit of the future, which Abraham could not have understood at the time. (Gen. 15:14)

Wasn't that awesome that God brings Joseph to the very place that Gen. 15:14 is speaking of, elevates Joseph to a place of authority in order to bring his people to where he is, allows them to fall into bondage to Egypt and then sets them free - just like He said he would? But, I digress. lol

So we look at the "faith chapter" in Hebrew 11:

"By faith Abel offered..."

"By faith Noah,... prepared an ark...."

"By faith Abraham...obeyed; and he went out,..."

"By faith Moses...refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God..."

"By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. "

"By faith the harlot Rahab...received the spies with peace."

Rahab - did her faith save her? Not alone. Her obedience by putting that scarlet cord in the window, coupled with faith, brought her salvation.

Do I think our faith alone saves us? No, but our faith coupled with our obedience. - Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That is a work of obedience.

The point that "One Steppers" tend to want to make is that God has done something in our lives that we were helpless to do for ourselves (our "Genesis 15" experience). Both Paul and James (and everybody else, for that matter) do go on to emphasize the "Genesis 22" experience; but I ("One Steppers" i general) feel that it is still vital to keep reminding ourselves that it was God's grace that got us started on this journey and really it is the same grace that will keep us going.

I hate using these terms! LOL! Three-Steppers have never overlooked the beauty of God's grace and mercy. We understand that we are helpless to do anything for ourselves to make ourselves righteous. It is His Spirit that dwells in us that does the work. We understand that having begun in the Spirit, we are not made perfect by our flesh. (Gal 3:3) That means that we also understand God's grace started us on this journey and will perform a good work in us until the day of Jesus Christ. (Phil. 1:6)

As a "dyed in the wool One Stepper," I believe like the other "dyed in the wool One Steppers" believe - that secretly all "Three Steppers" are actually "One Steppers" in their heart. LOL.

LOL! If it was secretly, I would be a liar. I may be a lot of things, but I'm not a liar. I'm just a "dyed in the wool Three-Stepper"! - guilty as charged!