The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Wow, Mike.

Your post assumed the reason why some don't get the Spirit baptism is because they have certain sins that you didn't have?

No it does not. lol. I already said I can only speak from experience, and that was my experience, so I cannot speak for other reasons.

Originally Posted by notofworks

I think Mike's post really illustrates the "other side" very well. If tongues really is a necessary element to salvation and IF God withholds the gift of the Holy Spirit until sin is eliminated from one's life, then clearly the position Mike supports is a system that requires man to get better before he is saved.

No, it means repentance is required to get saved. I had not truly repented.

And such a statement is really, really, really, really scary.

When misconstrued like you did with it, sure.

This is really where I'd hope we would eventually arrive...the place where it's clear that "Three Steppers" believe in a system of salvation by works, believe in a system where we earn our salvation.

You shock me. After all the statements I made that state baptism and Spirit infilling with tongues are no more a work than repentance, and you still say this! Wow. Brother, I thought you were more honest about this than that.

Several of you have parsed scripture and laid out quite an impressive exegetical argument...much better than I could. But the nuts and bolts of the whole thing? There is a large group of people here who believe they've earned their salvation.

You really shock me with your words today. I was hestitant to agree. but now agree with Leg. that you simply do not want to see another perspective. I am disappointed.

Again, baptism and Spirit infilling with tongues are no more a work than repentance is because repentance is reliance upon the work of the cross alone for forgiveness, and baptism likewise is useless without faith that the cross saves, and Spirit infilling shows God giving utterance for tongues taking away anything in our minds that might think we do not need the cross and God's power to effect anything. but I already said that, and to twist my words like you have here shows me you were not interested in what I actually believe after clearly stating it.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No it does not. lol. I already said I can only speak from experience, and that was my experience, so I cannot speak for other reasons.

No, it means repentance is required to get saved. I had not truly repented.

When misconstrued like you did with it, sure.

You shock me. After all the statements I made that state baptism and Spirit infilling with tongues are no more a work than repentance, and you still say this! Wow. Brother, I thought you were more honest about this than that.

You really shock me with your words today. I was hestitant to agree. but now agree with Leg. that you simply do not want to see another perspective. I am disappointed.

Again, baptism and Spirit infilling with tongues are no more a work than repentance is because repentance is reliance upon the work of the cross alone for forgiveness, and baptism likewise is useless without faith that the cross saves, and Spirit infilling shows God giving utterance for tongues taking away anything in our minds that might think we do not need the cross and God's power to effect anything. but I already said that, and to twist my words like you have here shows me you were not interested in what I actually believe after clearly stating it.

Mike you can throw the verbal daggers and accusations all you like, but at the end of your tirade the fact still remains that you believe one has to eliminate sin from their life in order to get saved. I can sternly claim that because of the things you've said here and I'm just fitting the puzzle pieces together in a way you don't like. But they're your words, not mine.

You believe the infilling of the Holy Spirit as evidenced with tongues is a necessary part of salvation. You also said that sin must be eliminated from one's life in order to get those tongues.

Sorry Mike, but I'm just connecting the dots of your statements. I realize it's very uncomfortable for you, but it is what it is. And I'll strongly reject, every single time, the words of someone who believes we can improve ourselves and in so doing, improve our position with God and His grace.

I found it very scary when you first said it, and I find the table-turning to me, just as troubling.

Many in the "grace camp" accuse people in "your camp" of "salvation by works." Your position here only exacerbates that perception.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Mike you can throw the verbal daggers and accusations all you like, but at the end of your tirade the fact still remains that you believe one has to eliminate sin from their life in order to get saved. I can sternly claim that because of the things you've said here and I'm just fitting the puzzle pieces together in a way you don't like. But they're your words, not mine.

You believe the infilling of the Holy Spirit as evidenced with tongues is a necessary part of salvation. You also said that sin must be eliminated from one's life in order to get those tongues.
Sorry Mike, but I'm just connecting the dots of your statements. I realize it's very uncomfortable for you, but it is what it is. And I'll strongly reject, every single time, the words of someone who believes we can improve ourselves and in so doing, improve our position with God and His grace.

I found it very scary when you first said it, and I find the table-turning to me, just as troubling.

Many in the "grace camp" accuse people in "your camp" of "salvation by works." Your position here only exacerbates that perception.

oh so TURNING FROM SIN/REPENTING is not necessary? ROFL!

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

oh so TURNING FROM SIN/REPENTING is not necessary? ROFL!

You seriously need some help with your rolling problem.

You can't read. Or you don't want to. Mike said he had to "Let go of certain sins" in order to be saved/speak in tongues. And I'm saying that whether or not one stops sinning doesn't get them saved.

I've also seen many who "spoke in tongues" and were getting drunk and/or committing fornication before the day was done. So it seems some speak in tongues without "letting go of sin". So what's the argument now?

I'm theologically and spiritually offended by the notion that one can eliminate/let go/walk away from sin and improve their position with God.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

oh so TURNING FROM SIN/REPENTING is not necessary? ROFL!

Turning from sin is not a moralist's new year's resolution, I'm-going-to-be-perfect mental exercise. It's placing complete trust in Jesus. Turning TO JESUS. It's what happens at faith.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No it does not. lol. I already said I can only speak from experience, and that was my experience, so I cannot speak for other reasons.



No, it means repentance is required to get saved. I had not truly repented.



When misconstrued like you did with it, sure.



You shock me. After all the statements I made that state baptism and Spirit infilling with tongues are no more a work than repentance, and you still say this! Wow. Brother, I thought you were more honest about this than that.



You really shock me with your words today. I was hestitant to agree. but now agree with Leg. that you simply do not want to see another perspective. I am disappointed.

Again, baptism and Spirit infilling with tongues are no more a work than repentance is because repentance is reliance upon the work of the cross alone for forgiveness, and baptism likewise is useless without faith that the cross saves, and Spirit infilling shows God giving utterance for tongues taking away anything in our minds that might think we do not need the cross and God's power to effect anything. but I already said that, and to twist my words like you have here shows me you were not interested in what I actually believe after clearly stating it.

What's shocking is that while I can repent because of faith, I can't fill myself with the Spirit and make myself speak in tongues (well, I probably could, but not the "legit" experience). Therefore, this Grace freely given is much more complicated. I have to wait to be saved. I have to go through a period of heart searching. I have to demonstrate that I really really really believe in Jesus. Then I have to prove that to others by speaking in tongues out loud in front of them. Mike, does that ever make you scratch your head??? It's so central to 3-stepper/UPC teaching, and does not seem even remotely central to Pauline theology on salvation. Paul missed a pretty important topic. You'd think this tongues-required-for-salvation thing would be a hot topic in the NT where everything else was. But no... no controversy with the Jews, Gentiles or any of the churches Paul writes too. The only remote controversy is the gifts of the Spirit at the public assembly. But nothing about this crown jewel of salvation that we dance around????? Salvation by faith, just as Abraham, but now you aren't saved until God fills you with the Spirit AND you speak with tongues?

Surely you can understand why some of us aren't following the logic here.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

What's shocking is that while I can repent because of faith, I can't fill myself with the Spirit and make myself speak in tongues (well, I probably could, but not the "legit" experience). Therefore, this Grace freely given is much more complicated. I have to wait to be saved. I have to go through a period of heart searching. I have to demonstrate that I really really really believe in Jesus. Then I have to prove that to others by speaking in tongues out loud in front of them. Mike, does that ever make you scratch your head??? It's so central to 3-stepper/UPC teaching, and does not seem even remotely central to Pauline theology on salvation. Paul missed a pretty important topic. You'd think this tongues-required-for-salvation thing would be a hot topic in the NT where everything else was. But no... no controversy with the Jews, Gentiles or any of the churches Paul writes too. The only remote controversy is the gifts of the Spirit at the public assembly. But nothing about this crown jewel of salvation that we dance around????? Salvation by faith, just as Abraham, but now you aren't saved until God fills you with the Spirit AND you speak with tongues?

Surely you can understand why some of us aren't following the logic here.

yeah.... knowing they had not received the HS in Acts 8... no big issue. They only called down the Apostles... Paul asking have you received "since" or "when" you believed.... no big question or issue. As you view and most I know never ask such a question.... WHY? Because the blind faith view does not even think to ask such a question as it is thought autumatic upon belief.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

yeah.... knowing they had not received the HS in Acts 8... no big issue. They only called down the Apostles... Paul asking have you received "since" or "when" you believed.... no big question or issue. As you view and most I know never ask such a question.... WHY? Because the blind faith view does not even think to ask such a question as it is thought autumatic upon belief.

You are speaking in parables or something. I need a ring decoder to decipher your message here. Let me try

Spirit baptism. Baptism in the Spirit. Promise of the Father.

I don't believe these are synonymous terms with every mention of "Spirit" in the Bible, but are a unique experience, particularly with the primary purpose of demonstrating God's acceptance of Jew AND Gentile in the Lukan narrative.

Acts 8 only tells us that it is expected that ALL can receive the Spirit after believing in Jesus. It is a gift for them that they can have. There is no regenerative talk in Luke's account. Surely you will admit that.