The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Once again, a good study on the topic of righteousness in the bible, and how Israel was made to seek it more than anything through law, and how works cannot attain it, is required. I think too many have not done such a study.

Anyway, all that I am saying is that baptism, for example, is not an act that in and of itself makes us righteous. That is all. And try as one might, one cannot find a loophole out of this need for baptism after a statement made like that, since it removes the ONLY problem with any salvation by works activity. Salvation by works is doing activities that, in and of themselves, render us righteous without the work of God's grace involved as the only means of attaining righteousness.

And until everyone can realize that the mental and heart assent of repentance and faith are as much activities as is baptism, albeit baptism is physical and the others are inward, they will not get this point.

Righteousness is our ticket to glory. Law tried to get man to make himself righteous. God knew it would not work, but man needed to know that. And baptism is the same thing as repentance as far as purposes go. Repentance admits self is useless and could never attain righteousness. Baptism is the same. It is a baptism into death and a burial of the old man, since it admits self is so useless, that all that can be done with that old man is to have it die and put away for good. That is as far from salvation by works as is possible.

I kinda think folks do not even realize how baptism is indeed a putting away of the old man in death. We have so much of this foolish "outward show of an inward work" nonsense, which is not even in the bible, that people forget that Romans 6:3-6 teaches baptism is involved in uniting us to the death of Christ so that His death is considered our deaths, since the old man can not attain its own righteousness, and is worthy for nothing other than death!

This act of this "burial" and "death" of the old man is done in order for us to get to the place where God alone is the one getting the glory for granting us the gift of righteousness. I mean, one could get no further away from "salvation by works" than by rendering dead and burying the old man that might ever consider saving himself by his own works.

So the baptism does not make us righteous by any means! It slays the "us" that might ever think it can make itself righteous.

Put it this way. It is as though our hands are full with our own efforts to attain righteousness, and God is trying to place within those hands his righteousness. And until we empty our hands of our hopes and dreams and efforts to make ourselves righteous, God cannot give us righteousness. And we empty our hands BY BAPTISM AND REPENTANCE



It's simple! Again, you agree repentance is a NECESSARY STEP along with the other non-admitted "step" of faith, making no one a one-stepper, so you should understand quite easily that unless one repents one cannot be saved or given righteousness or given any other gift from God! The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a GIFT, as much as righteousness is. And if you can see how repentance is necessary in order to receive any gift from God, then you can understand that not letting go of sin would disallow God from giving me the GIFT of the Holy Ghost.

Don't try to find a flaw in my words, here. lol. Just hear what I am saying, for if you believe repentance is necessary for anything from God then you should know that "letting go of sin" is repentance, and I had not actually repented, which is why I was not being Spirit filled.

Good grief, are you this long-winded when you preach?? I don't drink coffee, but you're making me want to!

Yes, I believe in repentance but in the true sense of the word, which is "To Turn" which is exactly what someone does when they "believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God has raised them from the dead." So of course, I believe in repentance. I don't care for the term "Step", but if you wanna call it that, fine.

I just cannot process your theology that the Holy Spirit is a "gift", yet at the same time, a "requirement". And I also really, really struggle with your theology that one can improve oneself and thereby, receive this "gift." My kids have never "earned" any of their "gifts." To me, that's edging into serious and dangerous heresy. You went to great lengths (almost beyond my attention span) to justify your stance, but at the end of the day, you're believing that you can improve yourself and better position yourself to receive salvation. This is a LOUD violation of "Not of Works" (hey, that'd make a good ID), lest any man should boast." I can't boast in this. I've done NOTHING to better position myself.

And you still haven't explained how some just receive this "gift" (tongues) the first time they walk into a church and some have to work on some things. Doesn't seem fair to me.

Do you have any other explanation for those that "tarry" for months/years for the Holy Spirit than, "They need to get rid of sin in their life"? And if that's the only explanation for the "tarrying", what is your prooftext for that belief? Who in the bible ever "tarried for the Holy Ghost", what is the scriptural principle for someone "tarrying for the Holy Ghost"?

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Good grief, are you this long-winded when you preach?? I don't drink coffee, but you're making me want to!

Yes, I believe in repentance but in the true sense of the word, which is "To Turn" which is exactly what someone does when they "believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God has raised them from the dead." So of course, I believe in repentance. I don't care for the term "Step", but if you wanna call it that, fine.

I just cannot process your theology that the Holy Spirit is a "gift", yet at the same time, a "requirement". And I also really, really struggle with your theology that one can improve oneself and thereby, receive this "gift." My kids have never "earned" any of their "gifts." To me, that's edging into serious and dangerous heresy. You went to great lengths (almost beyond my attention span) to justify your stance, but at the end of the day, you're believing that you can improve yourself and better position yourself to receive salvation. This is a LOUD violation of "Not of Works" (hey, that'd make a good ID), lest any man should boast." I can't boast in this. I've done NOTHING to better position myself.

And you still haven't explained how some just receive this "gift" (tongues) the first time they walk into a church and some have to work on some things. Doesn't seem fair to me.

Do you have any other explanation for those that "tarry" for months/years for the Holy Spirit than, "They need to get rid of sin in their life"? And if that's the only explanation for the "tarrying", what is your prooftext for that belief? Who in the bible ever "tarried for the Holy Ghost", what is the scriptural principle for someone "tarrying for the Holy Ghost"?

SO you are saying salvation and eternal life have no conditions? They are gifts that are COMPLETELY UNCONDITIONAL and UNMERITED?? The key is to the issue at hand is the proper term is more "offering" than what we consider "gift" God offers salvation freely to those whom take upon his yoke by faith/proper response.

Jesus clearly says that Eternal life is to them that DO his commandment. This was my point earlier concerning is obedience forensic or intrinsic to salvation and eternal life. You clearly see it only a "forensic" when Jesus and others say it is intrinsic which would mean salvation is based upon conditions met by contract.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

SO you are saying salvation and eternal life have no conditions? They are gifts that are COMPLETELY UNCONDITIONAL and UNMERITED??

Abso-flippin-lutely!! (Jeffrey's having an effect on me)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Abso-flippin-lutely!! (Jeffrey's having an effect on me)

Wrong, You believe you have to repent and believe. The only ones who believe unconditional salvation are the universal reconciliationists who think no one need so much as repent or believe to be saved.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Abso-flippin-lutely!! (Jeffrey's having an effect on me)

If that is the case you have to believe in antinomianism, and OSAS as

1) Salvation would not even require faith as salvation is just handed and forced upon you.
2) You make a mockery of Gen 15:6 and what "justice" is.
3) You make a mockery of Abiding and doing his commandments to "continue" to abide and be considered his friend.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.
Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.
Joh 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.


4) You ignore and mock that salvation comes at a cost

Mat 13:45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls,
Mat 13:46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
Mat 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind.

5) You negate that salvation is via contract to obtain life...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

6) Counting the cost to obtain is not really counting the cost. As ot you no cost must be measured as simple belief or agreement HAS NO RISK OF LOSS OR COST!

Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and[B] was not able to finish. [/B
]Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

This is not about one moment but the life of a believer of forsaking!

You are saying that without fullfilling his purpose you stay and abide unto salvation.

Luk 14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
Luk 14:35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

When you lose your pupose (commandments) you lose who you are and are cast out as meaningless.

You are saying you can do so without cost IN THE BEGINNING and througout.

You make God's righteousness/justice slothful in that we would acquit the unrighteous...

Pro 17:15 The one who acquits the guilty and the one who condemns the innocent both of them are an abomination to the LORD.

Salvation would not be to those who obey as it would be without ANY relationship to obedience.

Heb 5:9 And by being perfected in this way, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him

One can be without any righteousness and be considered WED to Christ for the garment that we wear we have made ready with our deeds...

Mat 22:11 But when the king came in to see the wedding guests, he saw a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes.
Mat 22:12 And he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' But he had nothing to say.8
Mat 22:13 Then the king said to his attendants, 'Tie him up hand and foot and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!'
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
Rev 19:8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"-- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

Salvation is a purchase from the only one who can offer it. Jesus Christ the righteous! We enter contract to obtain by becoming his servants and negate all else. For a double minded man is unstable in his ways and we must plow straight for narrow is the way. Many agonize to enter but cannot as many are called but few chosen.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

If that is the case you have to believe in antinomianism, and OSAS as

1) Salvation would not even require faith as salvation is just handed and forced upon you.
2) You make a mockery of Gen 15:6 and what "justice" is.
3) You make a mockery of Abiding and doing his commandments to "continue" to abide and be considered his friend.

First, he's about as antinomian as you are a pure, bona fide legalist.

Second, where did he say salvation did not require faith? If I recall, that's his entire argument.

Third, I think our major disagreement is how you see Abraham's "being made right with God" and your absurd claim that Abraham's reckoned righteousness is not salvific (I'll get back to that later).

Finally, no one makes a mockery of doing his commandments, Legalist. You guys obsess with this. We are talking about initiation. Getting in the family. It's a faith family. That's the point.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

First, he's about as antinomian as you are a pure, bona fide legalist.

WOW, really... imagine that... I am legalist! the problem is that Word can mean and be taken many ways. It's all upon who is defining. Jesus was a legalist as was John James etc... To you baptism for remission is legalism.... oh poor me. I am a legalist.

Second, where did he say salvation did not require faith? If I recall, that's his entire argument.

Again READ THE COMMENT! I SAID COMPLETELY UNCONDITIONAL AND UNMERITED! Do you really understand that the depth of that?

You cannot enter into covenant unto OBTAINING SALVATION WITHOUT NEGATING ALL and accepting the cost. THAT IS NOT SIMPLE MENTAL BELIEF.

Third, I think our major disagreement is how you see Abraham's "being made right with God" and your absurd claim that Abraham's reckoned righteousness is not salvific (I'll get back to that later).

My point is within ITSELF it was about judging his response "faithful". You ignored what I said about it. What did i say? As usual you don't pay attention

2) Gen 15:6 is not directly about salvation WHICH IT IS NOT! Abraham was not asking about being saved no more than Phinehas was about salvation...

Psa 106:30 Then Phinehas stood up and intervened, and the plague was stayed.
Psa 106:31 And that was counted to him as righteousness ...

Again it's about God's justice applied toward action. You can ignore that all you want.

Finally, no one makes a mockery of doing his commandments, Legalist.

Yes, you do! Because salvation is not obtained without doing his commandments. YOU MOCK HIS WORDS AS NOT DOING TO OBTAIN! If that is not mockery I don't know what is.
For you to say obedience unto salvation is not intrinsic then you ignore what the covenant is. It's A CONTRACT to obtain. You must stand right at heart to ENTER COVENANT that means DOING SOMETHING! you are fulfilling his request to CAST ASIDE ALL TO OBTAIN! Until you can understand the basics it's pointless. Ignore the costs. It's not FREE it's FREELY GIVEN to those who OBEY UNTO FOLLOWING! You can say I have UNTIL YOU FOLLOW WHICH IS DOING!

You guys obsess with this. We are talking about initiation. Getting in the family. It's a faith family. That's the point.

and you still don't get it. Again you fail to understand the one cannot TAKE UPON ANYTHING WITHOUT GIVING UP! That is as much a work as anything could be to OBTAIN!

Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. ESV

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

WOW, really... imagine that... I am legalist! the problem is that Word can mean and be taken many ways. It's all upon who is defining. Jesus was a legalist as was John James etc... To you baptism for remission is legalism.... oh poor me. I am a legalist.

Perhaps you misunderstood my statement.

Calling him antinomian was like him calling you a legalist. Though I don't know enough about your theology to qualify such a statement, I'm in essence saying you are accusing him of something that is a polar extreme, just like legalism is.

Just playing fair with your word games.

[Jeffrey]

Again it's about God's justice applied toward action. You can ignore that all you want.

What was Abraham's action in Gen 15? How does Paul interpret that action?

You've yet to address that.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Good grief, are you this long-winded when you preach?? I don't drink coffee, but you're making me want to!

Are you kidding? I can hardly get things out in an hour! lol

Yes, I believe in repentance but in the true sense of the word, which is "To Turn" which is exactly what someone does when they "believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God has raised them from the dead." So of course, I believe in repentance. I don't care for the term "Step", but if you wanna call it that, fine.

I am only going by the terms that folks on this forum have used. But that repentance you believe in is no more a work for salvation than baptism is.

I just cannot process your theology that the Holy Spirit is a "gift", yet at the same time, a "requirement".

Why? Righteousness is a gift, and also a requirement!

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

And I also really, really struggle with your theology that one can improve oneself and thereby, receive this "gift."

One CANNOT improve oneself. That is my point. Improving oneself is making oneself righteous. All we can do is empty ourselves of what is wrong. But we cannot give ourselves anything that is good.

The problem is that, I think, you are trying to find fault in what I am saying rather than actually hearing me out. personally, I think you do not want to agree with me, which makes you find SOMETHING wrong in my words, so you remain confused in my words when you cannot find something.

My kids have never "earned" any of their "gifts."

See? this is what I mean. I never said anything about earning anything. But5 you are putting words in my mouth at every turn. First you say it is improving oneself to be baptized, and now you say we are earning righteousness.

Anyway, you are right about earning gifts! But if they had something in their hands that hindered you from handing them a gift, they cannot hold your gift.

To me, that's edging into serious and dangerous heresy.

Of course, it is, but I do not believe what you claimed I do.

You went to great lengths (almost beyond my attention span) to justify your stance, but at the end of the day, you're believing that you can improve yourself and better position yourself to receive salvation.

NO I am not saying that. Had you read my words with more intention o n actually getting my point, than pushing your patience to the limit, you would have seen that good bro.

This is a LOUD violation of "Not of Works" (hey, that'd make a good ID), lest any man should boast." I can't boast in this. I've done NOTHING to better position myself.

What does repentance do?

And you still haven't explained how some just receive this "gift" (tongues) the first time they walk into a church and some have to work on some things. Doesn't seem fair to me.

You still have not acknowledged that no one can speak in tongues unless God gives the utterance.

Do you have any other explanation for those that "tarry" for months/years for the Holy Spirit than, "They need to get rid of sin in their life"? And if that's the only explanation for the "tarrying", what is your prooftext for that belief? Who in the bible ever "tarried for the Holy Ghost", what is the scriptural principle for someone "tarrying for the Holy Ghost"?

I do not have prooftexts. Do you know hat a prooftext is? I said that was MY experience. And I may not even know all the reasons why others do not receive the Spirit. The fact is, God gives the Spirit, and we cannot contrive it.

Until you actually look for good in my words, you will not get my words, for it seems clear you are looking for fault and not actually hearing me.