The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

If that is the case you have to believe in antinomianism, and OSAS as

1) Salvation would not even require faith as salvation is just handed and forced upon you.
2) You make a mockery of Gen 15:6 and what "justice" is.
3) You make a mockery of Abiding and doing his commandments to "continue" to abide and be considered his friend.

First, he's about as antinomian as you are a pure, bona fide legalist.

Second, where did he say salvation did not require faith? If I recall, that's his entire argument.

Third, I think our major disagreement is how you see Abraham's "being made right with God" and your absurd claim that Abraham's reckoned righteousness is not salvific (I'll get back to that later).

Finally, no one makes a mockery of doing his commandments, Legalist. You guys obsess with this. We are talking about initiation. Getting in the family. It's a faith family. That's the point.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

First, he's about as antinomian as you are a pure, bona fide legalist.

WOW, really... imagine that... I am legalist! the problem is that Word can mean and be taken many ways. It's all upon who is defining. Jesus was a legalist as was John James etc... To you baptism for remission is legalism.... oh poor me. I am a legalist.

Second, where did he say salvation did not require faith? If I recall, that's his entire argument.

Again READ THE COMMENT! I SAID COMPLETELY UNCONDITIONAL AND UNMERITED! Do you really understand that the depth of that?

You cannot enter into covenant unto OBTAINING SALVATION WITHOUT NEGATING ALL and accepting the cost. THAT IS NOT SIMPLE MENTAL BELIEF.

Third, I think our major disagreement is how you see Abraham's "being made right with God" and your absurd claim that Abraham's reckoned righteousness is not salvific (I'll get back to that later).

My point is within ITSELF it was about judging his response "faithful". You ignored what I said about it. What did i say? As usual you don't pay attention

2) Gen 15:6 is not directly about salvation WHICH IT IS NOT! Abraham was not asking about being saved no more than Phinehas was about salvation...

Psa 106:30 Then Phinehas stood up and intervened, and the plague was stayed.
Psa 106:31 And that was counted to him as righteousness ...

Again it's about God's justice applied toward action. You can ignore that all you want.

Finally, no one makes a mockery of doing his commandments, Legalist.

Yes, you do! Because salvation is not obtained without doing his commandments. YOU MOCK HIS WORDS AS NOT DOING TO OBTAIN! If that is not mockery I don't know what is.
For you to say obedience unto salvation is not intrinsic then you ignore what the covenant is. It's A CONTRACT to obtain. You must stand right at heart to ENTER COVENANT that means DOING SOMETHING! you are fulfilling his request to CAST ASIDE ALL TO OBTAIN! Until you can understand the basics it's pointless. Ignore the costs. It's not FREE it's FREELY GIVEN to those who OBEY UNTO FOLLOWING! You can say I have UNTIL YOU FOLLOW WHICH IS DOING!

You guys obsess with this. We are talking about initiation. Getting in the family. It's a faith family. That's the point.

and you still don't get it. Again you fail to understand the one cannot TAKE UPON ANYTHING WITHOUT GIVING UP! That is as much a work as anything could be to OBTAIN!

Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. ESV

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

WOW, really... imagine that... I am legalist! the problem is that Word can mean and be taken many ways. It's all upon who is defining. Jesus was a legalist as was John James etc... To you baptism for remission is legalism.... oh poor me. I am a legalist.

Perhaps you misunderstood my statement.

Calling him antinomian was like him calling you a legalist. Though I don't know enough about your theology to qualify such a statement, I'm in essence saying you are accusing him of something that is a polar extreme, just like legalism is.

Just playing fair with your word games.

[Jeffrey]

Again it's about God's justice applied toward action. You can ignore that all you want.

What was Abraham's action in Gen 15? How does Paul interpret that action?

You've yet to address that.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

What was Abraham's action in Gen 15? How does Paul interpret that action?

You've yet to address that.

ARE YOU JOKING? I have addressed this so many times it's crazy. THE NARRATOR IS SPEAKING WITH ABRAHAM'S LIFE IN VIEW. and he "believed" the lord. What is the narrator speaking about. He is speaking "believed" with Abraham's life in view not just a moment but the WHOLE. What do you have in the very next fuew verses... Abraham AGAIN doing what God commanded to "bring" to make covenant. Abraham ASKS God replies what to do and HE DOES thus again God is considering Abraham's response to his WORD.

Gen 15:8 But he said, "O Lord GOD,

how am I to know that I shall possess it?"

(WHAT IS HE ASKING TO OBTAIN?)

Gen 15:7 And he said to him, "I am the LORD who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess."

WAIT I thought it was a given already? NO! god says what he wants but it is not COVENANT YET! Thus Abraham askes how to "obtain" and what is God's response to "obtain"...

Gen 15:9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half.

What is Abraham's respons to God's Word to him which is "context" ... Is this response by Abraham "righteous"? YES! Which is exactly up UNTIL Gen 22 the narrator sees as ("believed" the Lord) as James says is fulfilled.

God comes into covenant because of obedience in Gen 22 and the continuance in Gen 12 and Gen 15:10 he is responding "righteously", "just"
thus God makes COVENANT to obtain the land.