The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I sat the other night talking to Prax about just this thing (on the Matthew 28:19 thread). We explored different ways in which "works" is used in the NT and found examples of where it is strictly associated with "The Works of the Law" and other examples of extrapolations, you name it.

You're the one who is trying to be silly by claiming the act of "believing" is a "work." That's ridiculous, and you keep throwing it out as if you've stumbled upon something profound.

Jesus said it, not me. I get my doctrines from the bible and such statements that Jesus made.

The simple fact of the matter is, the "Three Stepper" plan is "baptismal regenerationism" (Water & Spirit Doctrine). Whether you actually subscribe to this belief I can not really tell. You've been all over the place in this thread. Go back and reread your posts.

I really think you cannot get the concept of how salvation by works is the teaching that a work in and of itself makes us righteous without any dependence on the work of the cross.

My words only contradict if someone does not get that point. Like you said earlier, you know my position on salvation by works, and yet you cannot point your finger to the problem, which is because you really do not understand the relationship of righteousness in salvation by works, and where righteousness more correctly is understood as something God;s work alone provides.

Anyone who preaches this issue of righteousness correctly will receive the same confusion from people who cannot follow the point properly. Paul's words were always misunderstood for that very reason. He had to repeatedly clarify himself by posing hypothetical erring conclusions and saying "God forbid" in response, as in Romans 6. He knew people were getting this wrong all the time. He knew the pat responses that were simply caused by their lack of understanding the issue.

In fact, one wise teacher said that if people are not usually mistaking your position when you speak of righteousness, you are probably not preaching the truth of it like Paul was.

On the one hand, you got the law-keepers who thought Paul claimed Law was useless trash when he taught that we obtain righteousness apart from the law, and on the other hand we get good brethren like yourself who think we preach baptismal regeneration when we claim baptism is necessary for salvation, and you miss the all-important difference that the action in and of itself makes no one righteous.

I in no way feel superior to you or anyone else here. lol. Please cease with personal attacks, and deal with the issue objectively. I sense the same confusion in your accusation of my pride that I do in your reasoning that baptism is a necessity for salvation is salvation by works. Ironic as it is,. baptism is done to PUT AWAY ANY EFFORTS OF SELF THAT COULD EVER HOPE TO MAKE ITSELF RIGHTEOUS, rather than part of a salvation by works system. If anyone has a revelation on the importance of baptism, it is not because they, themselves, were so superior, but rather God was gracious enough to shed light into their spirits on the issue.

So, once again, please, please, please, stop the personal attacks. Let us reason together.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Jesus said it, not me. I get my doctrines from the bible and such statements that Jesus made.


I really think you cannot get the concept of how salvation by works is the teaching that a work in and of itself makes us righteous without any dependence on the work of the cross.

My words only contradict if someone does not get that point. Like you said earlier, you know my position on salvation by works, and yet you cannot point your finger to the problem, which is because you really do not understand the relationship of righteousness in salvation by works, and where righteousness more correctly is understood as something God;s work alone provides.

Anyone who preaches this issue of righteousness correctly will receive the same confusion from people who cannot follow the point properly. Paul's words were always misunderstood for that very reason. He had to repeatedly clarify himself by posing hypothetical erring conclusions and saying "God forbid" in response, as in Romans 6. He knew people were getting this wrong all the time. He knew the pat responses that were simply caused by their lack of understanding the issue.

In fact, one wise teacher said that if people are not usually mistaking your position when you speak of righteousness, you are probably not preaching the truth of it like Paul was.

On the one hand, you got the law-keepers who thought Paul claimed Law was useless trash when he taught that we obtain righteousness apart from the law, and on the other hand we get good brethren like yourself who think we preach baptismal regeneration when we claim baptism is necessary for salvation, and you miss the all-important difference that the action in and of itself makes no one righteous.

I in no way feel superior to you or anyone else here. lol. Please cease with personal attacks, and deal with the issue objectively. I sense the same confusion in your accusation of my pride that I do in your reasoning that baptism as a necessity for salvation is salvation by works. Ironic as it is,. baptism is done to PUT AWAY ANY EFFORTS OF SELF THAT COULD EVER HOPE TO MAKE ITSELF RIGHTEOUS, rather than part of a salvation by works system. If anyone has a revelation on the importance of baptism, it is not because they, themselves, were so superior, but rather God was gracious enough to shed light into their spirits on the issue.

So, once again, please, please, please, stop the personal attacks. Let us reason together.

Uh... you ready to clear up your head and stop the personal attacks? You jumped right on line this morning and twisted a one liner conversation that I had with another poster into a personal attack on you.

Are you really that important in the grand scheme of the cosmos? Did you check Drudge this morning? That guy is really tearing you up. How can you take it?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Anyone who preaches this issue of righteousness correctly will receive the same confusion from people who cannot follow the point properly. Paul's words were always misunderstood for that very reason. He had to repeatedly clarify himself by posing hypothetical erring conclusions and saying "God forbid" in response, as in Romans 6. He knew people were getting this wrong all the time. He knew the pat responses that were simply caused by their lack of understanding the issue. Paul was misunderstood by Jews and Judaizers mostly who heard him preach the Gospel to such an extent that they imagined he DIDN'T believe in good works. That's a picture of how he preached grace. Paul, of course, elaborating in Epistles talks about sanctification and the believer's lifestyle in response many times -- none substituting his view of salvation. The lack of understanding was (mostly) not the Gentiles but the Jews. Food for thought. Paul qualified his remarks constantly for their sakes.

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