The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Hoeing a row of beans is "work" - but nobody ever claimed it was the same kind of "work" as being circumcised under the Law of Moses. Mixing the two together, in fact, will make a person look rather silly.

Which is exactly why I said that salvation by works is not saying baptism is not necessary for salvation. Perhaps it is notofworks who needs to hear this more than anyone else here. He has been insisting I preach salvation by works and that we earn salvation and improve ourselves.

But that is very point i was making in saying Jesus claimed faith was a work. It is ridiculous to say something that is a work necessarily falls under the category of salvation by works.

But what exactly are you referring to in my posts when you repeat the idea of words and meanings. You are not quoting anything specifically that I said, but are just pointing these statements of yours at me. The reason I say this is because your very reasoning quoted above is the basis for my claim that baptism is not salvation by works.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Which is exactly why I said that salvation by works is not saying baptism is not necessary for salvation. Perhaps it is notofworks who needs to hear this more than anyone else here. He has been insisting I preach salvation by works and that we earn salvation and improve ourselves.

But that is very point i was making in saying Jesus claimed faith was a work. It is ridiculous to say something that is a work necessarily falls under the category of salvation by works.

But what exactly are you referring to in my posts when you repeat the idea of words and meanings. You are not quoting anything specifically that I said, but are just pointing these statements of yours at me. The reason I say this is because your very reasoning quoted above is the basis for my claim that baptism is not salvation by works.

The use of "works" in John 6:28-29, does not carry the same meaning as ... say for example, Romans 4:1-5.

In fact, in Romans 4:5, "works" (whatever they may be) are contrasted with belief.

In effect, Paul is saying that the "work of God" in John 6:29, is not really a "work" at all. How can he do this without contradicting the words of Jesus? He does it because he is using the word in a different sense and a different context than Jesus did.

(And just for the record, the underlying word in the original is the same as well).

When someone seriously says that "believing" is a "work" needed for salvation in a conversation about the cross, they are committing the same error as a person who says Acts 19:32 is an instruction for the church assembly.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The use of "works" in John 6:28-29, does not carry the same meaning as ... say for example, Romans 4:1-5.

Exactly! That is my point. The works of Romans 4 are works that in and of themselves are deemed to make us righteous. I do not look at baptism as such a work any more than I do faith. but baptism and faith are still works. BUT THEY DO NOT MAKE US RIGHTEOUS IN AND OF THEMSELVES. The "in and of themselves" clause seems to be the missing factor in your assessment here.

In fact, in Romans 4:5, "works" (whatever they may be) are contrasted with belief.

Again, EXACTLY MY POINT! But you seem to miss the fact that belief is a work, but not a work that in and of itself makes us righteous. We need works, brother. But those works are not inducing righteousness aside from the imputation of righteousness by God. THAT IS THE ISSUE. And I still think you are missing THAT point.

In effect, Paul is saying that the "work of God" in John 6:29, is not really a "work" at all. How can he do this without contradicting the words of Jesus? He does it because he is using the word in a different sense and a different context than Jesus did.

I disagree somewhat here, though. Faith is indeed a work. It is a work of our spirits that do exert effort. This is where people get confused since they think exactly the opposite of what you stated in the first two lines of your post.

Faith is a work. But it is not the works that in and of themselves make us righteous any more than baptism is. Works are found in the phrase "salvation by works". But we know those works in "salvation by works" are works that in and of themselves make us righteous.

Put it this way, the whole concept that we cannot do anything to make ourselves righteous. So long as one KNOWS THIS, then our insistence on baptism is not an erring insistence.

I cannot explain it better than that.

The works of Romans 4 are works that in and of themselves make us righteous. Period. Neither baptism nor faith fit that cetegory, although the two are still works.

(And just for the record, the underlying word in the original is the same as well).

When someone seriously says that "believing" is a "work" needed for salvation in a conversation about the cross, they are committing the same error as a person who says Acts 19:32 is an instruction for the church assembly.

Acts 19:32? Did you make a typo there? I cannot respond since I do not see the connection.

Saying that believing is a work for salvation is not at all wrong. The important distinction is that only works done to make ourselves righteous by sheer virtue of those works, and nothing at all from God, are the erring works. Works aside from that are not wrong. That means faith is indeed a work. I have tried getting that across when saying faith and repentance are no more part of "salvation by works" than baptism, although faith, repentance and baptism are still all actual works.

Notofworks does not seem to understand that, God bless him. And I humbly think you are missing it, too.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The use of "works" in John 6:28-29, does not carry the same meaning as ... say for example, Romans 4:1-5.

In fact, in Romans 4:5, "works" (whatever they may be) are contrasted with belief.

In effect, Paul is saying that the "work of God" in John 6:29, is not really a "work" at all. How can he do this without contradicting the words of Jesus? He does it because he is using the word in a different sense and a different context than Jesus did.

(And just for the record, the underlying word in the original is the same as well).

When someone seriously says that "believing" is a "work" needed for salvation in a conversation about the cross, they are committing the same error as a person who says Acts 19:32 is an instruction for the church assembly.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Which is exactly why I said that salvation by works is not saying baptism is not necessary for salvation. Perhaps it is notofworks who needs to hear this more than anyone else here. He has been insisting I preach salvation by works and that we earn salvation and improve ourselves.

But that is very point i was making in saying Jesus claimed faith was a work. It is ridiculous to say something that is a work necessarily falls under the category of salvation by works.

But what exactly are you referring to in my posts when you repeat the idea of words and meanings. You are not quoting anything specifically that I said, but are just pointing these statements of yours at me. The reason I say this is because your very reasoning quoted above is the basis for my claim that baptism is not salvation by works.

Mike, I still haven't heard from you or TL a good response to how Paul points to circumcision never being some "realized" way salvation came. In fact, Paul is explicit about Abraham's faith and accounted righteousness. It just seems we do for water baptism what Jews did for circumcision -- perhaps a requirement of the law, but not the way in.