What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bible?

[Michael The Disciple]

Yes being post trib myself I understand this. When you disagree on one or more important doctrine it makes it very hard to commit to a Church. They dont trust you and you are very hesitant to labor for a Church that you feel is teaching error.

I used to try to "fit in" but gave it up long ago.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes being post trib myself I understand this. When you disagree on one or more important doctrine it makes it very hard to commit to a Church. They dont trust you and you are very hesitant to labor for a Church that you feel is teaching error.

I used to try to "fit in" but gave it up long ago.

I suppose I don't see this as an "important doctrine." Why does it matter whether you believe Jesus will come back before, during or after the tribulation? How is that possibly important, as a matter of fellowshipping and laboring together?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I suppose I don't see this as an "important doctrine." Why does it matter whether you believe Jesus will come back before, during or after the tribulation? How is that possibly important, as a matter of fellowshipping and laboring together?

I agree.... unless it's a church that really *majors* on that doctrine.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I agree.... unless it's a church that really *majors* on that doctrine.

Majors on it? The second coming of Jesus is as important as it gets. Thats why on THIS SUBJECT Paul said "Let no man deceive you by any means".

Matter of fact Jesus said the very same thing in his introduction to the end time teaching of Matt. 24.

"Let no man deceive you".

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Majors on it? The second coming of Jesus is as important as it gets. Thats why on THIS SUBJECT Paul said "Let no man deceive you by any means".

Matter of fact Jesus said the very same thing in his introduction to the end time teaching of Matt. 24.

"Let no man deceive you".

In context:
Mt 24:4-5 Jesus told them, "Don't let anyone fool you. For many will come claiming to be the Messiah, and will lead many astray."

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Majors on it? The second coming of Jesus is as important as it gets. Thats why on THIS SUBJECT Paul said "Let no man deceive you by any means".

Matter of fact Jesus said the very same thing in his introduction to the end time teaching of Matt. 24.

"Let no man deceive you".

Believing that He's coming back is important. Knowing when it will happen in reference to the tribulation? Not so much. I agree with mm's verse--it shows the context a little better.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Believing that He's coming back is important. Knowing when it will happen in reference to the tribulation? Not so much. I agree with mm's verse--it shows the context a little better.

I offered Matt. 24 as a prooftext. I meant the whole chapter. So lets look at the full context.

1] And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
[2] And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
[4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
[6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
[7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
[8] All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
[10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
[12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
[23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[25] Behold, I have told you before.
[26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[28] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Note the large letters helping to put in context of what one should expect in the end times.

But of course if one is not post trib they will see this as nothing so exit stage left.

[Praxeas]

I know a Pastor like that, but he left the UPC and went independent. While he was UPC he trash talked my church and my Pastor...the crime? My pastor voted for video and allowed wedding rings. Other than that they were both pretty conservative alike

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I suppose I don't see this as an "important doctrine." Why does it matter whether you believe Jesus will come back before, during or after the tribulation? How is that possibly important, as a matter of fellowshipping and laboring together?

Its important because Paul said this:

1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thess. 2:1-4

If what I believe is right I cant let someone deceive me about what Paul is saying. He says it about this particular topic. And even if I personally would decide to sit under a pre trib Pastor I would have to deal with my conscience concerning taking others to a Church that does exactly what Paul warned us about......teaching Christ could come before the man of sin.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Its important because Paul said this:

1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thess. 2:1-4

If what I believe is right I cant let someone deceive me about what Paul is saying. He says it about this particular topic. And even if I personally would decide to sit under a pre trib Pastor I would have to deal with my conscience concerning taking others to a Church that does exactly what Paul warned us about......teaching Christ could come before the man of sin.

There are a lot of ways that the "Pre-Trib" rapture is articulated that still has "the man of sin" appearing before the "tribulation."

The "tribulation" is usually understood as being the "wrath of God." Whatever misery the "man of sin" is responsible for is seen as something different than "God's wrath."