The story of Saul going to the Witch of Endor has always troubled me.
Leviticus says;
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God
And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Deuteronomy says;
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
This woman calls up the Man of God, Samuel. Then, Samuel proceeds to rebuke Saul, giving him a Prophecy that comes to pass.
I simply don't get the fact that God would even allow Samuel to appear under this type magic, and then give Saul a "Word" which would then take place.
It's stories like these that create havoc in the Religious World. The Scriptures completely condemn any type of talking to or bringing up the dead, yet here a man does it and gets away with it, with results, even though the results were not pleasant.
I guess it would be different if they brought up the Devil, or some other dead person, but Samuel?
Either the bible is nonsense and this proves it, or else there could be a good explanation, I guess. Any explanation would not fit, though, would it?
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
This thread, and others, remind me of the relatively recent new surge of biblical criticism where God is not so much claimed to not exist, but admitted to exist and criticized in what people agree He actually did.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
This thread, and others, remind me of the relatively recent new surge of biblical criticism where God is not so much claimed to not exist, but admitted to exist and criticized in what people agree He actually did.
Bro Blume, why don't you give your take on this story. I promise to behave. (I can't speak for Timmy, though)
This experience has troubled many in the past, not just today. Here's a quick link showing some of the conflict involving calling people up from the dead.
I simply don't get the fact that God would even allow Samuel to appear under this type magic, and then give Saul a "Word" which would then take place.
It's stories like these that create havoc in the Religious World. The Scriptures completely condemn any type of talking to or bringing up the dead, yet here a man does it and gets away with it, with results, even though the results were not pleasant.
I guess it would be different if they brought up the Devil, or some other dead person, but Samuel?
hmmmm.... Interesting. I've read the passage before and I never felt any sort of moral dilemma. I never saw things that way. All I can say is, the lord works in mysterious ways. Why he allowed the real Samuel to appear in the under these circumstances, who knows. I don't believe under normal circumstances would consorting with a medium conjur an actual spirit of a dead person. But in this case the lord allowed Samuel to appear so Saul would know he was condemned and why. It was the lords way of saying "I know what you're doing, and I am not pleased".
I thought that even the witch herself was surprised by who she conjured... He asked her to call Samuel, and she cried out. I don't think she was surprised Saul had come to her. I think she was surprised she had really conjured Samuel. JMO
__________________
What we make of the Bible will never be as great a thing as what the Bible will - if we let it - make of us.~Rich Mullins
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.~Galileo Galilei
The scriptures forbid consulting mediums. It does not forbid speaking to the dead. Jesus did it. He spoke to Elijah and Moses.
So if God brings Samuel up for one final rebuke, what's the problem?
Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer Deu 18:11 or a charmer or a medium or a wizard or a necromancer, Deu 18:12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
The scriptures forbid consulting mediums. It does not forbid speaking to the dead. Jesus did it. He spoke to Elijah and Moses.
So if God brings Samuel up for one final rebuke, what's the problem?
Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer Deu 18:11 or a charmer or a medium or a wizard or a necromancer, Deu 18:12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.
Don't you think Jesus doing it is different than a Witch doing it?
Let's just say we break out the Ouija Board at my house tonight and I bring back Moses or Bro Urshan. I go to Church on Sunday and tell everyone what happened, good or bad. The point is, a message was given by a forbidden practice.
On the other hand, I'm in prayer at Church and someone from the past appears and gives me a "Word", good or bad.
I guess the real contrast in this would be, "Go to the Devil, he'll call up the dead by something that is forbidden by God, and you'll hear what "Thus Saith the Lord".
The story of the witch of Endor summoning Samuel is recorded in 1 Samuel 28:7-20, the only biblical account of someone being visited by someone who was deceased(except for the transfiguration and Jesus is the" LIFE" so the transfiguration would not count, John 11:25) Saul, having deprived himself of every legitimate means of spiritual input as a result of his own disobedience and rebellion, walked in foolishness again by seeking out the very resource (a medium) he had previously removed from the land. By divine law, mediums and spiritists were banned from Israel (Deuteronomy 18:11), and Israel was not to be defiled by them (Leviticus 19:31). That the King would stoop to this indicates how far he had fallen from God’s grace.
The passage does not give us any reason to believe it was anyone other than Samuel, who is described by the medium as “an old man wearing a robe” (v. 14). Obviously age and clothing do not exist in the realm of the spirits of those who have died, but God miraculously gave Samuel such appearances as would enable Saul perceive who the spirit was. The message Samuel gave Saul was completely accurate. God allowed the witch of Endor to summon the prophet Samuel in order to give King Saul the news of his coming defeat and death.
This does not mean that it is genuinely possible for witches or mediums to speak with the dead, only that God allowed it in this one exception. When a person dies, their soul is taken to heaven or hell, depending on whether they have placed their faith in Christ (Matthew 25:46). There is no reason to believe that a deceased person has any ability to leave heaven or hell in order to visit their living family members. God declared such practices to be abhorrent to Him, and those who did practice such things in Israel were to be put to death (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-12). Satan would like nothing more than for people to dabble in the occult world of spiritism and necromancy( NECROMANCY,NECROMANCER :Talking too or raising the dead?) Deuteronomy 18:10-12 God’s commandments regarding these things are designed to protect us from the schemes of our enemy.
__________________ John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you for ever 17 The Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you for ever 17 The Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
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