Godhead Question

TheLegalist · #1 07-15-2010, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I didn't say you described Divine Flesh (at least not your intent), but based on your response, I can understand how people make that logical leap.

The son is a real man. But you also believe the Son is fully God. Correct as they are interwined togethor.

This fleshly birth in Bethlehem, the expression of God, he is not spatially apart from God? He is "sent?" How is the Father "a part of him" when it sounds like he is "apart from him?"

He was sent as all men are sent into the World.

The Father moved him to speak? So Jesus was a man moved on by God? I thought Jesus was also fully God?

uh yes... he has obdience this man was a real man in perfect communion with God as part of his nature. to hear and learn and do. Yet the very God in him does which is part of his being speaks and the Son does because of the communion of love.

I'm not suggesting you or anyone believe in two gods, divine flesh, etc... I'm asking questions. Godhead in one sense is beautiful, and in another, is messy and confusing.

I can see in part it can be. Once you have a understanding of certain aspects and that The ONE GOD expressed his image and being into a child and that child was authentic in existance as a normal person who could say. I go unto my God and your God yet say, I AM he and many other sayings... you simply have a ONENESS of being of a authentic man who is God's unique Son and the Eternal God. Think about a man that knowledge is limited but yet hear and breath the divine revelation of God when the Father speaks and he speaks as his perfected mouthpiece. To be one in such a way is to truly be perfected. A Man that can feel the perfect love of God beyond measure and also know the depth of all creation. One Day we shall be like him.

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only one,45 himself God, who is in closest fellowship with46 the Father, has made God47 known.48

Maximilian · #2 07-15-2010, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

I can see in part it can be. Once you have a understanding certain aspects and that The ONE GOD expressed his image and being into a child and that child was authentic in existance as a normal person who could say. I go unto my God and your God yet say, I AM he and many other sayings... you simply have a ONENESS of being of a authentic man who is God's unique Son and the Eternal God. Think about a man that knowledge is limited but yet hear and breath the divine revelation of God when the Father speaks and he speaks as his perfected mouthpiece. To be one is such as way is to truly be perfected. One Day we shall be like him.

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only one,45 himself God, who is in closest fellowship with46 the Father, has made God47 known.48

The bolded -- doesn't compute. "God's unique son and God too."

I get your last part -- but this is precisely how my Trinitarian brothers describe that unity as well. In fact, it's almost verbatim.

Your scripture says that no one has seen God, but the Son has made Him known (the one "at the Father's side").

At a faith level and a cognitive level I believe and accept that Jesus is God. However, how this relationship works out, I've been around it for decades and can't quite get it. I'm jealous of those of you on here who believe you got it down.

TheLegalist · #3 07-15-2010, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximilian

The bolded -- doesn't compute. "God's unique son and God too."

I get your last part -- but this is precisely how my Trinitarian brothers describe that unity as well. In fact, it's almost verbatim.

Your scripture says that no one has seen God, but the Son has made Him known (the one "at the Father's side").

At a faith level and a cognitive level I believe and accept that Jesus is God. However, how this relationship works out, I've been around it for decades and can't quite get it. I'm jealous of those of you on here who believe you got it down.

in part Trinitarians and Oneness agree on somethings and use similar terminology. The difference IMO is I don't believe the Son has his own deity in which he communes himself as deity. His Deity is the fact that his very expression is that of the Father. Trinitarians say proceed but in part they don't agree in the same way. Is the "man" God only in part that the Father is part of his existance. Can I say the "Son" is the Father? In Part yes as the existance of God is seen and realized by perfect relationship to the Father and he is perfectly known through the Son. (perfect synergism) The physical existance is simply man but the interactive existance of the mind of Christ is interwined with a perfect relationship with God as part of his very being. The two cannot be seperated. He breathes the Father literally intellectually as the Father reveals to him in his daily walk. The Son is limited in part but yet not limited as the Father will give him whatsoever he shall ask according to the perfect will. Yet the Son can speak as the very existance of God to Abraham and Moses because part of his existance is tied to God and speaks in harmony with him.

Maximilian · #4 07-15-2010, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

in part Trinitarians and Oneness agree on somethings and use similar terminology. The difference IMO is I don't believe the Son has his own deity in which he communes himself as deity. His Deity is the fact that his very expression is that of the Father. Trinitarians say proceed but in part they don't agree in the same way. Is the "man" God only in part that the Father is part of his existance. Can I say the "Son" is the Father? In Part yes as the existance of God is seen and realized by perfect relationship to the Father and he is perfectly known through the Son. (perfect synergism) The physical existance is simply man but the interactive existance of the mind of Christ is interwined with a perfect relationship with God as part of his very being The two cannot be seperated.

The bolded: Help me understand. So if one claims Jesus is Divine, you prefer to say he is divine only in the sense that he is a Divine expression but not fully divine? I'm confused again

The Son is the Father because they have a perfect unity? (Whatever that really means). Because he represents the Father so perfectly, and has such a unity, therefore He IS the Father? *scratching head*

3rd Bolded Part -- Sounds awesome, but really don't know how to understand that.

Quote:

He breathes the Father literally intellectually as the Father reveals to him in his daily walk. The Son is limited in part but yet not limited as the Father will give him whatsoever he shall ask according to the perfect will. Yet the Son can speak as the very existance of God to Abraham and Moses because part of his existance is tied to God and speaks in harmony with him.

In what ways is the Son limited and not limited? He can have whatever he asks? He had the choice to have the Father send angels to spare Him death but is also to be obedient and submitted to the Father's will? How does that work?

Sounds like the Son isn't fully divine in your explanation. I thought that was a key part of Oneness theology.

TheLegalist · #5 07-15-2010, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximilian

The bolded: Help me understand. So if one claims Jesus is Divine, you prefer to say he is divine only in the sense that he is a Divine expression but not fully divine? I'm confused again

Yes, he is the divine expression by his creation and by his congitive relation to the Father. To know God is to know the Christ. It doesn't get any closer. To speak to Jesus it to literally have existance of God before you and perfected in time in you! How because the Man Jesus Christ submits by love to the perfect will of the Father. The Father is intrinsically apart of his thinking and rationale to choose. The Father expresses perfect love in this and the Son chooses his will.

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Quote:

The Son is the Father because they have a perfect unity? (Whatever that really means). Because he represents the Father so perfectly, and has such a unity, therefore He IS the Father? *scratching head*

Yes... Is God's Word not himself manifested and realized to whom it is expressed?

Quote:

3rd Bolded Part -- Sounds awesome, but really don't know how to understand that.

In what ways is the Son limited and not limited? He can have whatever he asks? He had the choice to have the Father send angels to spare Him death but is also to be obedient and submitted to the Father's will? How does that work?

See above scripture. The son is limited like any man. Yet he is not limited because him and the Father are One togethor and in perfect union of being.
He sees the pure justice of God and the perfect will and the fear of the flesh is quenched by the revelation and perfect will revealed to the Son from the indwelling Father of whom is part of his rationale as they are one.

Quote:

Sounds like the Son isn't fully divine in your explanation. I thought that was a key part of Oneness theology.

He is fully divine as the Father is the very part of his being. He is the Mind of God expressed and God's perfection draws the humanity of the Son to perfection by it. Jesus said to my God and your God yet he is the very I AM.
It is the temple of GOD and of the Lamb. We will know the Father by the perfect realization of a submissive Son who will is encaptivated by the perfection of God's love and justice.

Maximilian · #6 07-15-2010, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Yes, he is the divine expression by his creation and by his congitive relation to the Father. To know God is to know the Christ. It doesn't get any closer. To speak to Jesus it to literally have existance of God before you and perfected in time in you! How because the Man Jesus Christ submits by love to the perfect will of the Father. The Father is intrinsically apart of his thinking and rationale to choose. The Father expresses perfect love in this and the Son chooses his will.

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Yes... Is God's Word not himself manifested and realized to whom it is expressed?

See above scripture. The son is limited like any man. Yet he is not limited because him and the Father are One togethor and in perfect union of being.
He sees the pure justice of God and the perfect will and the fear of the flesh is quenched by the revelation and perfect will revealed to the Son from the indwelling Father of whom is part of his rationale as they are one.

He is fully divine as the Father is the very part of his being. He is the Mind of God expressed and God's perfection draws the humanity of the Son to perfection by it. Jesus said to my God and your God yet he is the very I AM.
It is the temple of GOD and of the Lamb. We will know the Father by the perfect realization of a submissive Son who will is encaptivated by the perfection of God's love and justice.

Quote:

Yes, he is the divine expression by his creation and by his congitive relation to the Father. To know God is to know the Christ. It doesn't get any closer. To speak to Jesus it to literally have existance of God before you and perfected in time in you! How because the Man Jesus Christ submits by love to the perfect will of the Father. The Father is intrinsically apart of his thinking and rationale to choose. The Father expresses perfect love in this and the Son chooses his will.

But is he himself, fully divine? Is Jesus fully divine? I understand the closeness, the unity, the union, etc, but is he Divine himself?

Is the Son a separate individual apart from God like you and I? And if he is apart like you and I, how can he also be divine?

TheLegalist · #7 07-15-2010, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximilian

But is he himself, fully divine? Is Jesus fully divine? I understand the closeness, the unity, the union, etc, but is he Divine himself?

Is the Son a separate individual apart from God like you and I? And if he is apart like you and I, how can he also be divine?

Well if we say "being", yes it has the divine quality as apart of it. Is JEsus just the Father? No! If JEsus just a man? No! You have a cognitive and authentic man and you have the one and only authentic God indwelling his expression in which both interact togethor and the authentic man submitting to perfection of love and perfect justice. The human cognitive aspect of the "being" Jesus is not divine as it is limited and he submits by choice.