Godhead Question

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

The bolded -- doesn't compute. "God's unique son and God too."

I get your last part -- but this is precisely how my Trinitarian brothers describe that unity as well. In fact, it's almost verbatim.

Your scripture says that no one has seen God, but the Son has made Him known (the one "at the Father's side").

At a faith level and a cognitive level I believe and accept that Jesus is God. However, how this relationship works out, I've been around it for decades and can't quite get it. I'm jealous of those of you on here who believe you got it down.

in part Trinitarians and Oneness agree on somethings and use similar terminology. The difference IMO is I don't believe the Son has his own deity in which he communes himself as deity. His Deity is the fact that his very expression is that of the Father. Trinitarians say proceed but in part they don't agree in the same way. Is the "man" God only in part that the Father is part of his existance. Can I say the "Son" is the Father? In Part yes as the existance of God is seen and realized by perfect relationship to the Father and he is perfectly known through the Son. (perfect synergism) The physical existance is simply man but the interactive existance of the mind of Christ is interwined with a perfect relationship with God as part of his very being. The two cannot be seperated. He breathes the Father literally intellectually as the Father reveals to him in his daily walk. The Son is limited in part but yet not limited as the Father will give him whatsoever he shall ask according to the perfect will. Yet the Son can speak as the very existance of God to Abraham and Moses because part of his existance is tied to God and speaks in harmony with him.

[SteppingStone]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Jesus Christ mediated between God and men on the cross. Verse 6 even explicitly explains how he mediated between God and men: he gave himself a ransom for all. In fact, one might could think of the cross as all the mediation mankind will ever need

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I hope that helps.

Yep, when he said, "It is finished" indeed it was...

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

in part Trinitarians and Oneness agree on somethings and use similar terminology. The difference IMO is I don't believe the Son has his own deity in which he communes himself as deity. His Deity is the fact that his very expression is that of the Father. Trinitarians say proceed but in part they don't agree in the same way. Is the "man" God only in part that the Father is part of his existance. Can I say the "Son" is the Father? In Part yes as the existance of God is seen and realized by perfect relationship to the Father and he is perfectly known through the Son. (perfect synergism) The physical existance is simply man but the interactive existance of the mind of Christ is interwined with a perfect relationship with God as part of his very being The two cannot be seperated.

The bolded: Help me understand. So if one claims Jesus is Divine, you prefer to say he is divine only in the sense that he is a Divine expression but not fully divine? I'm confused again

The Son is the Father because they have a perfect unity? (Whatever that really means). Because he represents the Father so perfectly, and has such a unity, therefore He IS the Father? *scratching head*

3rd Bolded Part -- Sounds awesome, but really don't know how to understand that.

He breathes the Father literally intellectually as the Father reveals to him in his daily walk. The Son is limited in part but yet not limited as the Father will give him whatsoever he shall ask according to the perfect will. Yet the Son can speak as the very existance of God to Abraham and Moses because part of his existance is tied to God and speaks in harmony with him.

In what ways is the Son limited and not limited? He can have whatever he asks? He had the choice to have the Father send angels to spare Him death but is also to be obedient and submitted to the Father's will? How does that work?

Sounds like the Son isn't fully divine in your explanation. I thought that was a key part of Oneness theology.

[Hoovie]

Philippians 2 gives some clarity

NIV

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!


AND
I like the New Living translation

5You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.

6Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.

7Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,

8he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

Is the Son the Father? Same essential "person" (for lack of a better word)?

If Jesus is only a "mode" of God, then how is he fully human?

Where does the Text say that these are merrily modes?

The Son and the Father are distinct from each other. I think what has been posted so far is enough to explain if you read it. I never said they are distinct PERSONS.

I never said "Jesus is only a mode of God".

I said He is a Person with a Human nature.

Nobody said anything about the text saying merrily modes

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The Son and the Father are distinct from each other. I think what has been posted so far is enough to explain if you read it. I never said they are distinct PERSONS.

I never said "Jesus is only a mode of God".

I said He is a Person with a Human nature.

Nobody said anything about the text saying merrily modes

I love the attitude. Are you suggesting I'm not reading? Maybe I'm just not as smart as you, Prax.

While I admit that there are SOME who have quite an insight into the theology of the godhead, I find more forcefully assuming that role. I'm not that guy. I haven't suggested as such. On this topic, I'm open to learn. But your response in bold is so typical. Someday I'll have the same Spirit you have so I can see all things like you do.

You did say he was a mode. You said the Father, Son, Spirit are modes. But if you are taking that back, then okay. As far as the Text, I'm asking where does the concept of modalism come from? Isn't it people attempting to explain this triune nature just like those who formed an old creed years prior?


Jesus is a person that has human nature. Is Jesus God? Did you forget that part about who He is as well?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

I love the attitude. Are you suggesting I'm not reading? Maybe I'm just not as smart as you, Prax.

You are reading something into what I posted that is not there.

You did say he was a mode.

I said

Originally Posted by Praxeas

If people can compartmentalize the topic then it's easier to see.

God is a person, like you and I, in that He is a rational, thinking, intelligent being, yet of much much more "power" than us.

God though, as a person, has a Divine nature. It's at the incarnation that Person picked up a human nature too and became in practical terms, a human being.

The one Divine Spirit that makes the Father "Divine" unifies both so that the Son is not separated from the Father. We can use the terms modes or manifestations or forms

You said the Father, Son, Spirit are modes.

It would be helpful if you quoted me.

But if you are taking that back, then okay. As far as the Text, I'm asking where does the concept of modalism come from? Isn't it people attempting to explain this triune nature just like those who formed an old creed years prior?

Typical style of interaction with you "nobody said blah blah blah."

Jesus is a person that has human nature. Is Jesus God? Did you forget that part about who He is as well?

Why are you being so belligerent? You said something, as an assertion and Im pointing out nobody said what you said. Let's not ruin a good conversation ok?

I used the words "modes, manifestations or forms"..I said "we can use those words"...where do I find them?

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.

I also used the term BEING. Is Christ a being? A human being? the bible clearly says He is human.

then you said "Jesus is God, did you forget that part"

The Son is God incarnate (humanity). God is a Person. That Person was incarnate, becoming human. That person did not cease to possess the Divine nature too. So in the Son was have a Person, with a Divine nature and a Human nature. We can get into the issue of Kenosis and the Deity of the Son another time.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

The bolded: Help me understand. So if one claims Jesus is Divine, you prefer to say he is divine only in the sense that he is a Divine expression but not fully divine? I'm confused again

Yes, he is the divine expression by his creation and by his congitive relation to the Father. To know God is to know the Christ. It doesn't get any closer. To speak to Jesus it to literally have existance of God before you and perfected in time in you! How because the Man Jesus Christ submits by love to the perfect will of the Father. The Father is intrinsically apart of his thinking and rationale to choose. The Father expresses perfect love in this and the Son chooses his will.

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

The Son is the Father because they have a perfect unity? (Whatever that really means). Because he represents the Father so perfectly, and has such a unity, therefore He IS the Father? *scratching head*

Yes... Is God's Word not himself manifested and realized to whom it is expressed?

3rd Bolded Part -- Sounds awesome, but really don't know how to understand that.

In what ways is the Son limited and not limited? He can have whatever he asks? He had the choice to have the Father send angels to spare Him death but is also to be obedient and submitted to the Father's will? How does that work?

See above scripture. The son is limited like any man. Yet he is not limited because him and the Father are One togethor and in perfect union of being.
He sees the pure justice of God and the perfect will and the fear of the flesh is quenched by the revelation and perfect will revealed to the Son from the indwelling Father of whom is part of his rationale as they are one.

Sounds like the Son isn't fully divine in your explanation. I thought that was a key part of Oneness theology.

He is fully divine as the Father is the very part of his being. He is the Mind of God expressed and God's perfection draws the humanity of the Son to perfection by it. Jesus said to my God and your God yet he is the very I AM.
It is the temple of GOD and of the Lamb. We will know the Father by the perfect realization of a submissive Son who will is encaptivated by the perfection of God's love and justice.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You are reading something into what I posted that is not there.


I said




It would be helpful if you quoted me.


Why are you being so belligerent? You said something, as an assertion and Im pointing out nobody said what you said. Let's not ruin a good conversation ok?

I used the words "modes, manifestations or forms"..I said "we can use those words"...where do I find them?

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.

I also used the term BEING. Is Christ a being? A human being? the bible clearly says He is human.

then you said "Jesus is God, did you forget that part"

The Son is God incarnate (humanity). God is a Person. That Person was incarnate, becoming human. That person did not cease to possess the Divine nature too. So in the Son was have a Person, with a Divine nature and a Human nature. We can get into the issue of Kenosis and the Deity of the Son another time.

So at once you go out of your way to show I "misquoted you" but then you admit that the Father, Son and Spirit ARE modes. What was the point of spending all that time. Let's get on with it...

Beligerent? Hardly.

Phil 2. The Son was in the form of God. But instead of settling for his divine status, and now he has the form of a servant, humbled because he is really God's son, and God's son would have no reason to be so clothed in rags as this one from Nazareth is.

I agree he is a human. But when you say the Son is God in flesh, but still distinct from God, that's where I lose you. How can the Son be fully a human while also being God?

Why get into it later?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

If people can compartmentalize the topic then it's easier to see.

God is a person, like you and I, in that He is a rational, thinking, intelligent being, yet of much much more "power" than us.

God though, as a person, has a Divine nature. It's at the incarnation that Person picked up a human nature too and became in practical terms, a human being.

The one Divine Spirit that makes the Father "Divine" unifies both so that the Son is not separated from the Father. We can use the terms modes or manifestations or forms

Originally Posted by Maximilian

So at once you go out of your way to show I "misquoted you" but then you admit that the Father, Son and Spirit ARE modes. What was the point of spending all that time. Let's get on with it...

Beligerent? Hardly.

Phil 2. The Son was in the form of God. But instead of settling for his divine status, and now he has the form of a servant, humbled because he is really God's son, and God's son would have no reason to be so clothed in rags as this one from Nazareth is.

I agree he is a human. But when you say the Son is God in flesh, but still distinct from God, that's where I lose you. How can the Son be fully a human while also being God?

Why get into it later?

Im just trying to have a conversation. I didn't present an attitude. I didn't say you were an idiot, yet that is how you responded to me that I had an attitude. Can we just discuss things, not make personal comments?

If so, I will continue