Speaking In Tongues Does Not Equal Salvation.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

FEAR TACTICS!!!!!!!

IF YOU DON'T DO THIS, YOU FAMILY WILL FALL APART, YOU KIDS WILL END UP GAY, AND YOU'LL BE DAMNED!!!!!

What about the people who serve the Lord for years and never speak in tonuges?

Who reach the world for Christ, who give their live in missionary work, converts from Islam who are killed by their family members, yet they are faithful to Christ to the death.

WE SEEK FOR SCRIPTURAL DEBATE, AND ALL WE GET IS "IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT LIKE US YOUR LIFE WILL BE DESTROYED AND YOU'LL END UP IN HELL."

Enough.

What saith the scripture? Thats the only thing I concerned about.

Exactly Jason. These questions must be dealt with. If we are going to bring stories of horror and blessings into the picture then we must also address the Paul Washers of this world. They aren't Oneness Pentecostal, but does anyone dare say they are not in the body of Christ???

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

So how do you explain those who DO SPEAK WITH TONGUES, yet are hateful, gossiping, have no self control, are unhappy, and yield pratically NO fruit of the Spirit, that is unless you count things as fruit that the Bible doesn't, such as tongues, dress codes, and the such like. None of those things are fruit in the Biblical sense, those many pulpits have attempted to classify them as such.

If speaking in tongues is absolutely required of ALL believers, so is casting out devils.

Furthermore, you stopped a verse too soon. If casting out devils is literal, and tongues is literal (as we would agree), and if tongues is for EVERY BELIEVER WITHOUT EXCEPTION, then so would also be drinking deadly poison and taking up snakes. IF we're going for ABSOLUTE BIBLICAL CHRISTIANTY, using your hermunetic, I would say the Snake Handlers have more to boast about.

Again, you're not quoting the whole verse, I'll help you out it concludes "and magnify God."

They spoke in tongues yes, but they obviously spoke something intelligable to someone. Tongues isn't repeating sounds, nor unknown languages, but rather supernaturally bestowed UNLEARNED languages. Tongues is ALWAYS an actual language.

Isaiah 28:11,12 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.[/QUOTE]

I've known many who supposedly reached the stage of "stammering lips" but didn't speak in tongues, therefore didn't get the Holy Ghost. TONGUES isn't the rest, belief IS (Hebrews 4).[/QUOTE]

Your arguements are invalid and simply do not negate that tongues are the initial evidence. You might not bother to read this, but this makes it pretty clear:

http://www.upci.org/doctrine/tongues.asp

Why do people resist what God wants (and requires) them to have ?

Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This [is] the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Exactly Jason. These questions must be dealt with. If we are going to bring stories of horror and blessings into the picture then we must also address the Paul Washers of this world. They aren't Oneness Pentecostal, but does anyone dare say they are not in the body of Christ???

Correct doctrine IS very important.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by BroGary

Your arguements are invalid and simply do not negate that tongues are the initial evidence. You might not bother to read this, but this makes it pretty clear:

http://www.upci.org/doctrine/tongues.asp

My arguments are invalid and all you are offering in response is a tract?

As for reading it, I not only have read it, but own it, it is in my files in my study. I not only have read it, but used its arguments in the past in FAVOR of the initial evidence doctrine. I'm familiar with the tract, all of which does nothing to invalidate my arguments.

Originally Posted by BroGary

Why do people resist what God wants (and requires) them to have ?

Good question. Why do you resist the scriptures which teach salvation is not by works, but by grace, and that we are justified by faith.

Furthermore, what makes you think I have resisted what God wants?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by BroGary

Correct doctrine IS very important.

So how do you define correct doctrine? With a tract? There is a real lack of scriptural exegesis on this thread an a hundred more like it on AFF in which folks come on with guns blazing claiming if you haven't spoken in tongues, you're not saved. Yet very few have offered much of a scriptural argument, and when they do offer scripture, it is easily rebutted with a more solid hermunetic, and then NOT replied to. (ex. my response to your quoting of Mark 16:17, and your following silence)

Originally Posted by BroGary

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Strange you quote Paul, and yet dispute his writings in Romans.

Originally Posted by BroGary

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

How do you worship God in Spirit? By running around, by shouting, by speaking in tongues?

What about in TRUTH? By teaching things that are such hidden truth that they are not even in the Bible? Such as the list of MUSTS that you did not yet reply to.

Elementary [Context], my dear Watson, elementary [context].

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

So how do you define correct doctrine? With a tract? There is a real lack of scriptural exegesis on this thread an a hundred more like it on AFF in which folks come on with guns blazing claiming if you haven't spoken in tongues, you're not saved. Yet very few have offered much of a scriptural argument, and when they do offer scripture, it is easily rebutted with a more solid hermunetic, and then NOT replied to. (ex. my response to your quoting of Mark 16:17, and your following silence)

Strange you quote Paul, and yet dispute his writings in Romans.

How do you worship God in Spirit? By running around, by shouting, by speaking in tongues?

What about in TRUTH? By teaching things that are such hidden truth that they are not even in the Bible? Such as the list of MUSTS that you did not yet reply to.

Elemntary [Context], my dear Watson, elementary [context].

Sorry, but you are just so very wrong, and if you lead people to believe that obeying Acts 2:38 is not a must, then you are risking the eternity of precious souls.

You seem like you are stubbornly bound in your error, so why should I repeat in detail to you the same basic things I have wrote in past discussions when you seem determined to stay in your error.

Anyone who is truely open and hungry for truth and will look at what ALL the scriptures saying conerning salvation they will indeed see that believing, repentence, baptism in Jesus name, and receiving the Holy Ghost are ALL an absolute MUST :-)

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Exactly Jason. These questions must be dealt with. If we are going to bring stories of horror and blessings into the picture then we must also address the Paul Washers of this world. They aren't Oneness Pentecostal, but does anyone dare say they are not in the body of Christ???

I agree, 100%. People like Paul Washer is a blessing to the body of Christ. It is too bad that people like him will never be able grace our churches doors. I am sure that some of our preachers might listen to people like him and others and recycle their messages.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by BroGary

Sorry, but you are just so very wrong, and if you lead people to believe that obeying Acts 2:38 is not a must, then you are risking the eternity of precious souls.

You seem like you are stubbornly bound in your error, so why should I repeat in detail to you the same basic things I have wrote in past discussions when you seem determined to stay in your error.

Anyone who is truely open and hungry for truth and will look at what ALL the scriptures saying conerning salvation they will indeed see that believing, repentence, baptism in Jesus name, and receiving the Holy Ghost are ALL an absolute MUST :-)

....or not.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by BroGary

Correct doctrine IS very important.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

You are right, but it seems that Dogma has become more important than doctrine.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I agree, 100%. People like Paul Washer is a blessing to the body of Christ. It is too bad that people like him will never be able grace our churches doors. I am sure that some of our preachers might listen to people like him and others and recycle their messages.

Yeah.

I don't mind so much that we won't let him preach in our churches. I do understand how strong doctrinal division and our traditions can be - on both sides of denominational barriers.

HOWEVER, when someone claims all others cannot enter heaven without first satisfying THEM and THEIR methodologies, I fear they are very much deceived.