Tithe-vs-Paying Your Bills

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Why does there have to be a tithing system? Why can there not just be a giving system? A system of giving from ones heart as one feels compelled out of their own spirit and by God's Spirit to meet the need that is at hand.

The law is always weak because of us. When we have law we reason away our responsibility.

The elderly widow who is struggling to make ends meet should receive from the church body to help her.

But another brother may give 10% when, due to his abundance, it is nothing compared to the sacrifice others make to give half that percentage. So one is able happily give an amount that is no sacrifice or struggle at all while another, who should be helped by the church, feels compelled to give their expendable income and more.

Law is weak... because of us.

Obedience to the spirit and nature of our God is strong and never fails.

As I tell my kids often... rules are for the unruly. When we exhibit the nature of our God there is no more need for rules because His law is written in our hearts and we follow after His will because it is our desire.

A law will never duplicate the beauty of being led by God on a personal level.

Tithing is a system that God set up. It is proved and tried. However the tithing law is not really what we should follow, but the spirit of that Law. 10% of what I have, I'm giving to God. There is no law against that. However I understand the frustration many have with the tithes or hell teaching. I would never teach that if I were a pastor but I would teach that tithing is important to support the ministry of the church and would require all leadership to abide by that teaching in the local assembly.


As far as widows go, there are requirements in the epistles regarding widows indeed as the KJV puts it.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Tithing is a system that God set up. It is proved and tried. However the tithing law is not really what we should follow, but the spirit of that Law. 10% of what I have, I'm giving to God. There is no law against that. However I understand the frustration many have with the tithes or hell teaching. I would never teach that if I were a pastor but I would teach that tithing is important to support the ministry of the church and would require all leadership to abide by that teaching in the local assembly.


As far as widows go, there are requirements in the epistles regarding widows indeed as the KJV puts it.

Why should we follow the spirit of the law that we give 10% "of what we have" and not also follow the spirit of the law that 20% of all the tithe that comes in goes to the pastor, musicians, sunday school teachers etc and the rest go to take care of the needy.

That part is as "set up" by God as the rest of it and it is also as "tried and true" as anything else. And it would seem to be at the very heart of the spirit of the law.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Why should we follow the spirit of the law that we give 10% "of what we have" and not also follow the spirit of the law that 20% of all the tithe that comes in goes to the pastor, musicians, sunday school teachers etc and the rest go to take care of the needy.

That part is as "set up" by God as the rest of it and it is also as "tried and true" as anything else. And it would seem to be at the very heart of the spirit of the law.

I'm assuming you believe all pastors take all the tithe and do not support missionaries, the poor, etc?

Did not Jesus say the same thing to Judas when he said, Lord we could have sold the ointment for money and gave to the poor?

Jesus said the poor you have always, but not me always..

If you have a good pastor, he should be supported to do the work God has called him. Its between Him and God what he does with that money. God has the power to take down ANYONE he puts up.

It was the offering in the new testament that supported the poor, was it not?

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I'm assuming you believe all pastors take all the tithe and do not support missionaries, the poor, etc?

*sigh*

No... I don't believe that.

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Did not Jesus say the same thing to Judas when he said, Lord we could have sold the ointment for money and gave to the poor?

Jesus said the poor you have always, but not me always..

Yes... My pastor is not Jesus and Jesus was not alluding to future pastors when he made this statement.

Originally Posted by onefaith2

If you have a good pastor, he should be supported to do the work God has called him. Its between Him and God what he does with that money. God has the power to take down ANYONE he puts up.

What if I decide he isn't a good pastor. LOL... Don't bother commenting on that one... I was just joking.

Why is it between Him & God? Why isn't it as important to keep the rest of the spirit of the law... isn't the division and distribution of the tithe as much (or more) in keeping with the spirit of the law as the actual collection thereof? Why is this not an important issue?

Originally Posted by onefaith2

It was the offering in the new testament that supported the poor, was it not?

Yes it was... because there was no more use of the tithe. It was free will offerings that did everything.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

*sigh*

No... I don't believe that.



Yes... My pastor is not Jesus and Jesus was not alluding to future pastors when he made this statement.



What if I decide he isn't a good pastor. LOL... Don't bother commenting on that one... I was just joking.

Why is it between Him & God? Why isn't it as important to keep the rest of the spirit of the law... isn't the division and distribution of the tithe as much (or more) in keeping with the spirit of the law as the actual collection thereof? Why is this not an important issue?



Yes it was... because there was no more use of the tithe. It was free will offerings that did everything.

When did it say there was no more use of the tithe? Sure we don't read about it until Hebrews 7. Does that mean it ended? When did it start back up? Why is God still blessing the 10%? There are a lot of questions we just don't have answers for. We do know the strife in the new Testament was over circumcision, not tithing and eating of foods. We also know that the early church still attended feasts and Peter was rebuked for it.

To be honest I haven't studied recently on how the tithe was distributed in the Old Testament. I've always understood that it was for the Levites, of course you may be more well versed on it that I am. However I do believe its important to not muzzle the ox as Paul said and of course that could be done with freewill offerings but some freewill offerings got people in trouble in the New Testament (Ananias and Sapphira) because they committed to more than they wanted to give.


Why is it between God and the pastor? To whom much is given, much is required. The pastor has to look out for your souls. He will be answering for a whole lot more than you and I as he has to give an account. That would include how he used our money.

Your pastor is supposed to flow under the annointing of the royal priesthood and the order of Melchisedek as he serves the people as serving Jesus. There many times the pastor is the voice of the Lord for the flock, just like Paul and Peter was.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

When did it say there was no more use of the tithe? Sure we don't read about it until Hebrews 7. Does that mean it ended? When did it start back up? Why is God still blessing the 10%? There are a lot of questions we just don't have answers for. We do know the strife in the new Testament was over circumcision, not tithing and eating of foods. We also know that the early church still attended feasts and Peter was rebuked for it.

To be honest I haven't studied recently on how the tithe was distributed in the Old Testament. I've always understood that it was for the Levites, of course you may be more well versed on it that I am. However I do believe its important to not muzzle the ox as Paul said and of course that could be done with freewill offerings but some freewill offerings got people in trouble in the New Testament (Ananias and Sapphira) because they committed to more than they wanted to give.


Why is it between God and the pastor? To whom much is given, much is required. The pastor has to look out for your souls. He will be answering for a whole lot more than you and I as he has to give an account. That would include how he used our money.

Your pastor is supposed to flow under the annointing of the royal priesthood and the order of Melchisedek as he serves the people as serving Jesus. There many times the pastor is the voice of the Lord for the flock, just like Paul and Peter was.

Well... I tried. But I'm out.

I just can't continue to deal with your willy nilly quotation of scripture in whatever application you need it to fit today.

I can discuss things at length with anyone that agrees with me or disagrees with me. All I need is an intellectual adherence to and use of the word of God. But ticky tacking every scripture that sounds good coupled with taking and leaving what thus sayeth the word of God as it fits ones beliefs... these are things that can't be dealt with. It is an exercise in futility that won't produce fruit.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Well... I tried. But I'm out.

I just can't continue to deal with your willy nilly quotation of scripture in whatever application you need it to fit today.

I can discuss things at length with anyone that agrees with me or disagrees with me. All I need is an intellectual adherence to and use of the word of God. But ticky tacking every scripture that sounds good coupled with taking and leaving what thus sayeth the word of God as it fits ones beliefs... these are things that can't be dealt with. It is an exercise in futility that won't produce fruit.

It seems that when you disagree with an application I make, you then say I just fit scripture where I want it. Honestly I only apply what principles the Lord has taught me. All scripture is God breathed and the principles can be used to address each issue where it stands. Thanks for the discourse and sorry you cannot continue because I take all my scriptures out of context in your eyes

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

When did it say there was no more use of the tithe? Sure we don't read about it until Hebrews 7. Does that mean it ended? When did it start back up? Why is God still blessing the 10%? There are a lot of questions we just don't have answers for. We do know the strife in the new Testament was over circumcision, not tithing and eating of foods. We also know that the early church still attended feasts and Peter was rebuked for it.

The issue isn't that we don't have answers for financial practices in the NT church... the issue is that few are willing to do the tedious research into the topic. Tithing wasn't practiced by the NT church. Historians have verified and settled that one. "Tithing" wasn't recommended until the 6th century and it wasn't even instituted by church council until the 8th century. Those are historical facts. Many times we assume that we don't have the answers when in truth, we just don't know the answers. Please note: the custom of "tithing" was instituted when massive building programs were being engaged by the Roman Catholic church. We don't see "tithing" anywhere until around this time.

Interestingly, the silence regarding tithing in disputes in the NT also testify against it's existance in the NT body. Gentiles made issue of circumcision being forced on them. No doubt, Gentiles who had never practiced "tithing" would have inquired about it at some point. None of the Apostles addressed the issue to Gentiles in the Epistles. So, we're left to agree with the historians, tithing didn't exist in the NT church. Generous free will offerings and COMMUNITY BODY LIFE existed within the church. Please understand... they centered their lives around one another. The shared ALL THINGS and they provided generous offerings to assist the poor, widows, and the saints in struggling regions. They met in homes and not massive church buildings. They had very little overhead. No need for a salary for elders... in fact, most took a vow of poverty and the body provided for them with necessities and items as needed. Today ministers feel entitled to a "salary" and benefits. They are often quite wealthy in some churches compared to the average member. Most have misconceptions about the first century church. For example I know a minister who preached about the altars and pulpit of the church in Corinth! LOL The church in Corinth didn't have a building! They were a network of gatherings in various homes throughout the city. He talked about how the letters of I and II Corinthians was read from the pulpit and all kinds of junk. Not so. The letters were copied and circulated throughout the home based groups gathering in Corinth. So, while many might wonder how the church could survive without tithing... they are obviously failing to see or don't know of the "community body life" of the NT church in Apostolic times.

To be honest I haven't studied recently on how the tithe was distributed in the Old Testament. I've always understood that it was for the Levites, of course you may be more well versed on it that I am. However I do believe its important to not muzzle the ox as Paul said and of course that could be done with freewill offerings but some freewill offerings got people in trouble in the New Testament (Ananias and Sapphira) because they committed to more than they wanted to give.

I've seen pastors muzzled by both tithes and freewill offerings. That isn't an issue. If a man of God is a servant and anointed... the saints will care for him. The example of Ananias and Saphira are excellent examples of how serious the free will offerings were in the Apostolic church. If one committed to so much.... they were cursed if they failed to hold their commitment as holy.

Why is it between God and the pastor? To whom much is given, much is required. The pastor has to look out for your souls. He will be answering for a whole lot more than you and I as he has to give an account. That would include how he used our money.

I think you should also research how the first century church was structured. You might be shocked. Each home based gathering didn't have a "pastor" or "elder". They had "elders" or "pastors". Typically the spiritually mature saints "pastored" the flock in their gatherings. It wasn't seen as an "office" like we see it today. It was a ministry of the body to the body.

Your pastor is supposed to flow under the annointing of the royal priesthood and the order of Melchisedek as he serves the people as serving Jesus. There many times the pastor is the voice of the Lord for the flock, just like Paul and Peter was.

Oh boy.... you need to do some serious research on the history of church finances and church leadership in the first and second centuries. A great book that chronicles some of this history with plenty of footnotes for personal research is a book titled, Pagan Christianity. It traces the pagan and unbiblical roots of what most of us assume is normative church. Everything from tithing, to steeples, to pulpits, to the "sermon" (which is also unbiblical in the way it's performed today). It's absolutely faciniating and eye opening. But I warn you. Once you know the history and have done personal research... you'll never see "church" the same way again. You might even become greatly disturbed over the overrall condition of the church in this modern era. It's a lot worse than one might think.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I'm assuming you believe all pastors take all the tithe and do not support missionaries, the poor, etc?

Did not Jesus say the same thing to Judas when he said, Lord we could have sold the ointment for money and gave to the poor?

Jesus said the poor you have always, but not me always..

If you have a good pastor, he should be supported to do the work God has called him. Its between Him and God what he does with that money. God has the power to take down ANYONE he puts up.

We aren't Catholic. The pastorate isn't a little papacy with total authority. The elders of the church are "servants". What they do with the funds gathered by the body is entirely the body's business. This is why most churches have open books in regards to finances for their "members" to review.

It was the offering in the new testament that supported the poor, was it not?

The "offering" was all that was collected in the NT churches! LOL Remember, they didn't have big buildings and big bills for nearly 300 years. Your average church gathering in the first 300 years of Christianity was only between 15 to 30 people in a single home based meeting. These "house churches" spread through Rome like wildfire and turned their world upside down in just one or two generations. They didn't collect "tithes". They facilitated the needs of their elders and the needy among them through generous love offerings. They had no "storehouse".

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

We aren't Catholic. The pastorate isn't a little papacy with total authority. The elders of the church are "servants". What they do with the funds gathered by the body is entirely the body's business. This is why most churches have open books in regards to finances for their "members" to review.



The "offering" was all that was collected in the NT churches! LOL Remember, they didn't have big buildings and big bills for nearly 300 years. Your average church gathering in the first 300 years of Christianity was only between 15 to 30 people in a single home based meeting. These "house churches" spread through Rome like wildfire and turned their world upside down in just one or two generations. They didn't collect "tithes". They facilitated the needs of their elders and the needy among them through generous love offerings. They had no "storehouse".

And how much did the apostles ask? Lands, houses? Please tell me how this is better than simply asking 10% as a standard across the board so that people don't give TOO much and put themselves in trouble or give too little and miss out on the blessings of God?