Tithe-vs-Paying Your Bills

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Good words. All i disagree with is the first part. Submission to leadership is crucial to be in good standing with the church. My take is if you don't believe the tithing message being preached.. i would seek the Lord as to where you should go. Not all churches teach it the same way. Nevertheless I agree with Gods Drummer, there must be a support system for the ministry so that he or they can minister to the flock

I agree in many ways with your post. However, the truth has to be told. We don't obey our leadership while disregarding Scripture. The NT church wasn't bound by circumcision (something practiced and embraced by Abraham) nor was it bound by tithing (something performed once by Abraham). To encourage people to freely give 10% (a “tithe” of their income) is acceptable, but to hinder the call of God and the enrichment and advancement of the church by holding back those who can't "pay up" their 10% is unbiblical. Any leadership that teaches that those who can't pay 10% and have “robbed God" and are to be restricted from ministry or Christian service are guilty of false doctrine and dividing the body.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Well... I tried. But I'm out.

I just can't continue to deal with your willy nilly quotation of scripture in whatever application you need it to fit today.

I can discuss things at length with anyone that agrees with me or disagrees with me. All I need is an intellectual adherence to and use of the word of God. But ticky tacking every scripture that sounds good coupled with taking and leaving what thus sayeth the word of God as it fits ones beliefs... these are things that can't be dealt with. It is an exercise in futility that won't produce fruit.

It seems that when you disagree with an application I make, you then say I just fit scripture where I want it. Honestly I only apply what principles the Lord has taught me. All scripture is God breathed and the principles can be used to address each issue where it stands. Thanks for the discourse and sorry you cannot continue because I take all my scriptures out of context in your eyes

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I agree in many ways with your post. However, the truth has to be told. We don't obey our leadership while disregarding Scripture. The NT church wasn't bound by circumcision (something practiced and embraced by Abraham) nor was it bound by tithing (something performed once by Abraham). To encourage people to freely give 10% (a “tithe” of their income) is acceptable, but to hinder the call of God and the enrichment and advancement of the church by holding back those who can't "pay up" their 10% is unbiblical. Any leadership that teaches that those who can't pay 10% and have “robbed God" and are to be restricted from ministry or Christian service are guilty of false doctrine and dividing the body.

Asking for 10% does not go against scripture. We cannot advance under a ministry when we are not willing to do what is required by that ministry, even if we do not agree. We do not know what the church was bound to as far as tithing because it is not mentioned. We do know however that believers got in trouble with freewill offerings when they committed to more than they wanted to give. 10% is a good model. Of course NO one can outdo the widow who gave all.

As illustrated by the above posting name, should you tithe instead of paying your bills? I think you should do both and with a heart that willing, God will make a way.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Tithing is a system that God set up. It is proved and tried. However the tithing law is not really what we should follow, but the spirit of that Law. 10% of what I have, I'm giving to God. There is no law against that. However I understand the frustration many have with the tithes or hell teaching.

We're in complete agreement here. I see nothing wrong with a personal commitment to giving 10% based on the "spirit of the Law" and personal desire. You're absolutely right, there is no law against that. And we agree, "tithe or hell", teaching is very hurtful and frustrating, especially for those Christians who want to attend church who are rather poor and unable to tithe.

*Please note: the poor were not required to tithe even under the Law. I've seen churches condemn older men and women who were on Social Security Income and entire families who were on public assistance or unemployment because they couldn't tithe and pay their bills. Such is a travesty and is extortion!

I would never teach that if I were a pastor but I would teach that tithing is important to support the ministry of the church and would require all leadership to abide by that teaching in the local assembly.

I see your logic here, but let me share what this tells me. First, there isn't any biblical precedent for requiring "leadership" to give a set amount to minister to the body. Let's say you have a powerfully anointed man who has potential to be mightily used of God...but he's given himself to a vow of poverty...you've disqualified John the Baptist! LOL Let's say you have a powerfully anointed family with potential to do mighty deeds for Jesus in the church... but due to lack of education and a house full of kids they make very little and cannot afford to tithe. Do you shoot this man down from being used of God with the gift God has given him... all because he cannot contribute 10% of his income??? I find that disturbing. He might only give $50 a week, but that might equal to 25% of his family's disposable spending money that week. Technically, he's giving far more in relation to cost of living than all the middle and upper middle class members who are giving their 10% and smiling smuggly in their sweep "positions" in the church. Now you've created a social class system of "haves and have nots" wherein the "haves" are used and the "have nots" are rejected from being used by God. The general philosophy of this approach says, "Yes, God may have called you...but all must pay in cold hard cash if they want to be used." I find that deplorable.

As far as widows go, there are requirements in the epistles regarding widows indeed as the KJV puts it.

Agreed, but sadly many churches not only "require tithing" as a "heaven or hell" issue... but they'll require it of a widow of 68 years old who has served the church all her life, even if she's on Social Security.

It all boils down to extortion and spiritual abuse.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

This principle is all through the Bible. Did Jesus agree with Caesar? no but he taught his disciples to pay their taxes. Submission to authority is crucial to being saved. Even King David taught us that with Saul trying to kill him and his own son taking away his kingdom. We have to be careful saying the only authority I need to obey is Jesus Christ. He is the one who set the foundation of his church on apostles and prophets. If you can't trust a pastor to follow the Lord, I wouldn't be going to that church.

If the spiritual authority over you required you to give your daughters to him to wife... would you comply? Hopefully not, because that's unbiblical. Why then would any tolerate a pastor who teaches "tithe or hell" or teaches "tithe or pew"??? Especially seeing that there isn't any biblical precedent for either teaching???

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I'm assuming you believe all pastors take all the tithe and do not support missionaries, the poor, etc?

Did not Jesus say the same thing to Judas when he said, Lord we could have sold the ointment for money and gave to the poor?

Jesus said the poor you have always, but not me always..

If you have a good pastor, he should be supported to do the work God has called him. Its between Him and God what he does with that money. God has the power to take down ANYONE he puts up.

We aren't Catholic. The pastorate isn't a little papacy with total authority. The elders of the church are "servants". What they do with the funds gathered by the body is entirely the body's business. This is why most churches have open books in regards to finances for their "members" to review.

It was the offering in the new testament that supported the poor, was it not?

The "offering" was all that was collected in the NT churches! LOL Remember, they didn't have big buildings and big bills for nearly 300 years. Your average church gathering in the first 300 years of Christianity was only between 15 to 30 people in a single home based meeting. These "house churches" spread through Rome like wildfire and turned their world upside down in just one or two generations. They didn't collect "tithes". They facilitated the needs of their elders and the needy among them through generous love offerings. They had no "storehouse".

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

We're in complete agreement here. I see nothing wrong with a personal commitment to giving 10% based on the "spirit of the Law" and personal desire. You're absolutely right, there is no law against that. And we agree, "tithe or hell", teaching is very hurtful and frustrating, especially for those Christians who want to attend church who are rather poor and unable to tithe.

*Please note: the poor were not required to tithe even under the Law. I've seen churches condemn older men and women who were on Social Security Income and entire families who were on public assistance or unemployment because they couldn't tithe and pay their bills. Such is a travesty and is extortion!



I see your logic here, but let me share what this tells me. First, there isn't any biblical precedent for requiring "leadership" to give a set amount to minister to the body. Let's say you have a powerfully anointed man who has potential to be mightily used of God...but he's given himself to a vow of poverty...you've disqualified John the Baptist! LOL Let's say you have a powerfully anointed family with potential to do mighty deeds for Jesus in the church... but due to lack of education and a house full of kids they make very little and cannot afford to tithe. Do you shoot this man down from being used of God with the gift God has given him... all because he cannot contribute 10% of his income??? I find that disturbing. He might only give $50 a week, but that might equal to 25% of his family's disposable spending money that week. Technically, he's giving far more in relation to cost of living than all the middle and upper middle class members who are giving their 10% and smiling smuggly in their sweep "positions" in the church. Now you've created a social class system of "haves and have nots" wherein the "haves" are used and the "have nots" are rejected from being used by God. The general philosophy of this approach says, "Yes, God may have called you...but all must pay in cold hard cash if they want to be used." I find that deplorable.



Agreed, but sadly many churches not only "require tithing" as a "heaven or hell" issue... but they'll require it of a widow of 68 years old who has served the church all her life, even if she's on Social Security.

It all boils down to extortion and spiritual abuse.

There is no logic I am using. My own mother tithes and she is always provided for and she makes significantly less. Honestly the widow gave all her living and Jesus didn't say, no you do not need to do that because you are poor. And Jesus and the apostles put out the offering plate so they were asking for money.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If the spiritual authority over you required you to give your daughters to him to wife... would you comply? Hopefully not, because that's unbiblical. Why then would any tolerate a pastor who teaches "tithe or hell" or teaches "tithe or pew"??? Especially seeing that there isn't any biblical precedent for either teaching???

I'm even amazed you made such a comparison. Look the early church gave much more than 10% to the church. I just don't see how that futhers the argument. Secondly GIVING is a bible principle, taking multiple wives is not.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

We aren't Catholic. The pastorate isn't a little papacy with total authority. The elders of the church are "servants". What they do with the funds gathered by the body is entirely the body's business. This is why most churches have open books in regards to finances for their "members" to review.



The "offering" was all that was collected in the NT churches! LOL Remember, they didn't have big buildings and big bills for nearly 300 years. Your average church gathering in the first 300 years of Christianity was only between 15 to 30 people in a single home based meeting. These "house churches" spread through Rome like wildfire and turned their world upside down in just one or two generations. They didn't collect "tithes". They facilitated the needs of their elders and the needy among them through generous love offerings. They had no "storehouse".

And how much did the apostles ask? Lands, houses? Please tell me how this is better than simply asking 10% as a standard across the board so that people don't give TOO much and put themselves in trouble or give too little and miss out on the blessings of God?

[onefaith2]

Its important to note that before the tithing law both Abraham tithed and Jacob committed that as much as you have increased, I will give you a tenth of it. We would do well to follow his example.
Sorry for the is money that important to you comment. That stuck me the wrong way lol.