Apostolic Identity??

[sandie]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Thanks for the clarification. That's all I was really looking for. Looking back I see why your post was so one sided (because of NOW's). However, it's still my opinion that trinitarians are more accepting of oneness than oneness are of trinitarians.

But, isn't it taught that oneness is a heresy? How can then can they accept so readily? I will say though that I do think the acceptance is getting better.
I look at Jentezen Franklin and his association with the Tenneys and have a better hope.
But, it's still been my experience that oneness are basically treated as heretics.

To be technical I accused oneness apostolics of believing and teaching their way was exclusive and then I lumped you into being a oneness apostolic. The fact is that oneness apostolics often cannot even fellowship with other apostolic churches because of their exclusivity. So they are very exclusive. If you are not a onenss apostolic then I apologize. If you are then you are part of a group that is very exclusive. Does that mean you are? No. It just means the group is.

See, that hasn't been my experience at all. The UPC churches I have attended never taught or spoke of being exclusive. I even sat under two Yadons and never knew they were "one steppers". The teachings I have recieved over the years haven't led me to believe I was part of any group who thought they were exclusive. I really think they/we are getting a bad rap.
Oh...and I am indeed a oneness apostolic and make no apologies for that. I just don't happen to agree with all the extra biblical things. But, I pray I never let go of the truths God has led me to, and truly it has been a journey of discovery. My experience has been: "here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept".

By the way. I loved what you said about the journey

Thanks.

I'm betting if you explained what you believed to them instead of just saying I don't believe the trinity I believe oneness that they probably wouldn't have a problem with your belief because they would think you believe in the trinity.

I don't want them to think I believe in the trinity, because I don't. I would feel like I wasn't being honest. It's a huge church and I live so far away that I'm not involved in any of the activities. So, I haven't expressed my beliefs to anyone. The trinity has never been preached about at any rate. The pastor is really extraordinary and I enjoy his preaching/teaching very much.
You can see him on You-tube under Pastor Roger Archer. He's about as far away from what I've ever been exposed to, but my daughter came to the Lord in this church (she was baptized by another pastor) and my children really like it there. And the first time I attended I felt the Spirit of the Lord in the parking lot...so, I thought this can't be bad...:wink: Plus, I started out my journey in a Foursqure church, was baptized in the HG at a FS tent revival.

When I think an assumption is warranted then I make it. If my assumption is wrong then I'll change it. I don't think making assumptions is usually the problem. I think making baseless assumptions can be a problem. And I do think we should speak the truth in love. And I'm sorry if I haven't been.

It's all good!

Of course it happens. I never said it didn't. See there you are assuming that I'm saying it doesn't happen. It's easy to make assumptions isn't it?

I think I was more responding to the idea that the balance was wrong. That is, that the oneness are more to blame in this area.

Apostolic Identity is strictly a oneness apostolic thing. It doesn't and cannot apply to any other type of Christian. Loving others can apply to other Christian but loving others isn't a tenet of Apostolic Identity.

Well, I disagree, unless it's in writing somewhere, I do believe that loving others is a tenet of Apostolic Identity.
How is this "can't apply to any other type of Christian" written in stone?
Maybe I didn't pay close attention, but none of this has been my experience, and I first walked into a UPC church in 1973.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time for this exchange.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by sandie

Well, I disagree, unless it's in writing somewhere, I do believe that loving others is a tenet of Apostolic Identity.
How is this "can't apply to any other type of Christian" written in stone?
Maybe I didn't pay close attention, but none of this has been my experience, and I first walked into a UPC church in 1973.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time for this exchange.

I believe there are two point of views being played out here of "Apostolic Identity" and I have been trying to figure out which one the thread was started on by reading the responses. If the first point of view , Apostolic Indentity meaning as defined by UPC and David Benard, then this thread is irrelevant, IMO, as just another bash and rehash thread. But you are speaking from a point of view , the one I had hoped was the point of this thread, that would be really interesting discussion if taken seriously.

The point of view I believe you are addressing is one of "true" Apostolic Identity. Not as defined by an org, but as defined by scripture. How should we as apostolics identify ourselves with the apostles ? From this point of view, I believe you are correct. Loving others is very much identifiable to the apostles. I believe jfrog and others are approaching from the first point of view which is why they disagree with your opinion to loving others as being an attribute.

On a side note, would Apostolic Identity as defined by an org be better symbolized as AI ?

[sandie]

Originally Posted by scotty

I believe there are two point of views being played out here of "Apostolic Identity" and I have been trying to figure out which one the thread was started on by reading the responses. If the first point of view , Apostolic Indentity meaning as defined by UPC and David Benard, then this thread is irrelevant, IMO, as just another bash and rehash thread. But you are speaking from a point of view , the one I had hoped was the point of this thread, that would be really interesting discussion if taken seriously.

The point of view I believe you are addressing is one of "true" Apostolic Identity. Not as defined by an org, but as defined by scripture. How should we as apostolics identify ourselves with the apostles ? From this point of view, I believe you are correct. Loving others is very much identifiable to the apostles. I believe jfrog and others are approaching from the first point of view which is why they disagree with your opinion to loving others as being an attribute.

On a side note, would Apostolic Identity as defined by an org be better symbolized as AI ?

I also hope the true identity of any apostolic is love, how can it be otherwise and be apostolic or biblical or Christ like?
Jesus said everything hinged on loving Him and others as ourselves. I hope that isn't being lost in the shuffle of who did what and says what and believes what.
I'm very new here and I can tell you I'm getting zapped with the revelations on the UPC left and right.
I must have been sleeping thru all this...LOL! I just learned I'm a "three stepper" and my last two pastors were "one steppers" ...who knew...not me!

I do know there are hard people everywhere in every denomination, I saw that in UPC, I saw it in non-demon as well. But, I could never get away from grace and love as being the most important attributes of Jesus and what He expects of His children. Those attributes are what drew me to Him...somehow, somewhere this Jewish girl knew Jesus loved me and even if it had to be a secret with Him and I, I loved Him too.
Now, for that to shine thru me like it should is my prayer!

[scotty]

Originally Posted by sandie

I also hope the true identity of any apostolic is love, how can it be otherwise and be apostolic or biblical or Christ like?
Jesus said everything hinged on loving Him and others as ourselves. I hope that isn't being lost in the shuffle of who did what and says what and believes what.
I'm very new here and I can tell you I'm getting zapped with the revelations on the UPC left and right.
I must have been sleeping thru all this...LOL! I just learned I'm a "three stepper" and my last two pastors were "one steppers" ...who knew...not me!

I do know there are hard people everywhere in every denomination, I saw that in UPC, I saw it in non-demon as well. But, I could never get away from grace and love as being the most important attributes of Jesus and what He expects of His children. Those attributes are what drew me to Him...somehow, somewhere this Jewish girl knew Jesus loved me and even if it had to be a secret with Him and I, I loved Him too.
Now, for that to shine thru me like it should is my prayer!

This is my take as well, I have attended several UPC most of my life but I have not seen some of the things that get brought up here, if they are true then its sad, just hasnt been my experience. But it is assumed that the whole org is such a terrible thing.

[sandie]

Originally Posted by scotty

This is my take as well, I have attended several UPC most of my life but I have not seen some of the things that get brought up here, if they are true then its sad, just hasnt been my experience. But it is assumed that the whole org is such a terrible thing.

I haven't seen anything like I've been reading here either....maybe some personality conflicts and some getting off the truth in how to treat others, but my pastors were not of anything but love...three steppers and one steppers alike. At one point we had an usher who was refusing to allow people into the church (vistors mind you) that weren't dressed what he thought they should be...the pastor brought that to a screeching halt and not long after that particular usher was gone.
I don't see the fairness in painting the whole org with a broad brush, but that's just my opinion.