What Happened At Pentecost in Acts 2?

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The 3,000 saved were resurrected when they were saved. Jesus resurrected the third day after His death. But those saved on the day of Pentecost resurrected with him. When we got saved, bro., we were resurrected with Jesus spiritually.

Romans 6:11 occurred for everyone who got saved in Acts 2.

Originally Posted by mfblume

When people resurrected with Jesus in Acts 2, that is to say they united to His death, burial and resurrection that He experienced weeks before. Any time anyone gets saved, you could say that person, then and there, died, was buried, and resurrected with Jesus. That is why OP said resurrection occurred on the day of Pentecost.

Originally Posted by houston

My mind was on the track that believers were resurrected. Apparently Blume was on that track as well.

I agree with the resurrection of believers with Christ which you guys have said. I guess I was just confused as to how what you guys were saying relates to the OP. I thought OP was referring to speaking in tongues and such like...oh well (it's sometimes hard to communicate effectively on forums...lol)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

I agree with the resurrection of believers with Christ which you guys have said. I guess I was just confused as to how what you guys were saying relates to the OP. I thought OP was referring to speaking in tongues and such like...oh well (it's sometimes hard to communicate effectively on forums...lol)

Many OP's believe repentance is DEATH WITH JESUS, baptism is BURIAL WITH JESUS and Spirit infilling is RESURRECTION WITH JESUS.

I disagree, personally. Baptism involves all the death, burial and resurrection! That is why Paul said in Romans 6 that baptism puts us into His death, and Col 2:11-12 says baptism sees us buried and risen with Christ. We are not "repented" into His death, but "baptized" into His death.

Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

...although Paul might have meant "risen with Him" is not experienced through baptism, but through a subsequent faith in God's operation.

Anyway, the point is that salvation is death, burial and resurrection with Jesus which occurred on the day of Pentecost for 3,000.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Many OP's believe repentance is DEATH WITH JESUS, baptism is BURIAL WITH JESUS and Spirit infilling is RESURRECTION WITH JESUS.

I don't agree with this view either. For instance, consider the story of Cornelius.
That would mean Cornelius resurrected and then he was buried?? How can we bury someone who has already resurrected?

Nah..I think not

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by tgbtg

i don't agree with this view either. For instance, consider the story of cornelius.
That would mean cornelius resurrected and then he was buried?? How can we bury someone who has already resurrected?

Nah..i think not

exactly!

[houston]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

I don't agree with this view either. For instance, consider the story of Cornelius.
That would mean Cornelius resurrected and then he was buried?? How can we bury someone who has already resurrected?

Nah..I think not

Originally Posted by mfblume

exactly!

I received the Holy Ghost a few minutes before I was water baptized.

[Sam]

There are differences of opinion as to when the death, burial, and resurrection of a Christian happens. Many OP's believe that we die to sin when we repent. Then, when we are baptized we are buried with him and placed into His death. The Holy Ghost Baptism is considered the spiritual resurrection when we rise to walk in newness of life. A couple problems with this are that:
1. Some people repent but are never immersed or never receive the Holy Ghost Baptism.
2. If water baptism puts us into Christ's death, our salvation is dependent upon someone else who physically baptizes us.
3. Many people receive the Holy Ghost Baptism (resurrection) but are never baptized by immersion, or, if baptized by immersion are not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. So, they have died (repented) and have been resurrected (Holy Ghost Baptism) but never buried properly.

Bro Blume believes (if I understand what he has written) that the death, burial, and resurrection experience happens all at once at water baptism. That does away with the question of people who have been resurrected but never buried but still makes our death, burial, and resurrection dependent on a person who baptizes us (unless we use the older form of baptism/mikveh which is self-immersion).

Others believe that the death, burial, and resurrection happen when the person is justified by faith. Some think that the baptism spoken of in Romans chapter 6 is not water baptism. Some believe Romans 6 speaks of an operation of the Holy Spirit that happens at justification/salvation/regeneration. At the moment a person accepts Jesus as Savior, he is placed/baptized by the Spirit into Christ or into the Body of Christ. So, he is united with Christ in death, burial, and resurrection.

When you read Romans 6, just replace the word "baptized" with "placed" and realize it is not speaking of literal water baptism but of an operation of the Spirit.This is what is taught by John MacArthur in his study Bible.

notes from the MacArthur Bible:
6:3 baptized into Christ Jesus. This does not refer to water baptism. Paul is actually using the word "baptized" in a metaphorical sense, as we might in saying someone was immersed in his work, or underwent his baptism of fire when experiencing some trouble. All Christians have, by placing saving faith in Him, been spiritually immersed into the person of Christ, that is, united and identified with Him (cf 1 Cor 6:17 10:2; Gal 3:27; 1 Pet 3:21; 1 John 1:3...). Certainly water baptism pictures this reality, which is the purpose --to show the transformation of the justified. into His death. This means that immersion or identification is specifically with Christ's death and resurrection....
6:4 buried with Him. Since we are united by faith with Him, as baptism symbolizes, His death and burial become ours. newness of life. This is true, if, in Christ we died and were buried with Him, we have also been united with Him in His resurrection life. There is a new quality and character to our lives, a new principle of life. This speaks of the believer's regeneration (cf. Ezek 36:26; 2 Cor 5:17; Ga;6:15; Eph 4:24). Whereas sin describes the old life, righteousness describes the new.

this is from pages 1702 and 1703 of The MacArthur Study Bible copyright 1997

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sam

There are differences of opinion as to when the death, burial, and resurrection of a Christian happens. Many OP's believe that we die to sin when we repent. Then, when we are baptized we are buried with him and placed into His death. The Holy Ghost Baptism is considered the spiritual resurrection when we rise to walk in newness of life. A couple problems with this are that:
1. Some people repent but are never immersed or never receive the Holy Ghost Baptism.
2. If water baptism puts us into Christ's death, our salvation is dependent upon someone else who physically baptizes us.
3. Many people receive the Holy Ghost Baptism (resurrection) but are never baptized by immersion, or, if baptized by immersion are not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. So, they have died (repented) and have been resurrected (Holy Ghost Baptism) but never buried properly.

Bro Blume believes (if I understand what he has written) that the death, burial, and resurrection experience happens all at once at water baptism. That does away with the question of people who have been resurrected but never buried.

I am not dogmatic about that, since Col 2:12 may mean baptism is the death and burial, and a subsequent faith in God's operation is the resurrection. Or it may mean that since we rise when we come forth out of baptism, we are resurrecting. At any rate, this brings up the contrast you make below about baptism in Romans 6. I believe it is involved with water baptism, since that is what water baptism is meant to show, anyway.

Others believe that the death, burial, and resurrection happen when the person is justified by faith. Some think that the baptism spoken of in Romans chapter 6 is not water baptism. Some believe Romans 6 speaks of an operation of the Holy Spirit that happens at justification/salvation/regeneration. At the moment a person accepts Jesus as Savior, he is placed/baptized by the Spirit into Christ or into the Body of Christ. So, he is united with Christ in death, burial, and resurrection.

When you read Romans 6, just replace the word "baptized" with "placed" and realize it is not speaking of literal water baptism but of an operation of the Spirit.This is what is taught by John MacArthur in his study Bible.

notes from the MacArthur Bible:
6:3 baptized into Christ Jesus. This does not refer to water baptism. Paul is actually using the word "baptized" in a metaphorical sense, as we might in saying someone was immersed in his work, or underwent his baptism of fire when experiencing some trouble. All Christians have, by placing saving faith in Him, been spiritually immersed into the person of Christ, that is, united and identified with Him (cf 1 Cor 6:17 10:2; Gal 3:27; 1 Pet 3:21; 1 John 1:3...). Certainly water baptism pictures this reality, which is the purpose --to show the transformation of the justified. into His death. This means that immersion or identification is specifically with Christ's death and resurrection....
6:4 buried with Him. Since we are united by faith with Him, as baptism symbolizes, His death and burial become ours. newness of life. This is true, if, in Christ we died and were buried with Him, we have also been united with Him in His resurrection life. There is a new quality and character to our lives, a new principle of life. This speaks of the believer's regeneration (cf. Ezek 36:26; 2 Cor 5:17; Ga;6:15; Eph 4:24). Whereas sin describes the old life, righteousness describes the new.

this is from pages 1702 and 1703 of The MacArthur Study Bible copyright 1997

I heard the idea that baptism in Romans 6 is "waterless", but tend to disagree. When I see water baptism demanded so stringently in the Acts of the apostles, I see it with the understanding of Romans 6's baptism. This shows us that the literal water is not the burial, although Paul is speaking of this burial while being water baptized, since Romans 6 teaches we were buried with Christ IN HIS TOMB IN WHICH HE WAS BURIED 2000 years ago. So why would we think the water is our actual burial. For some reason God demands physical object lessons in order to assist our faith, as in communion supper.

When we think of water baptism in the way Paul taught Romans 6's baptism into His death, then water baptism is much more meaningful and better understood. Otherwise it is an empty ritual without meaning which is why people disregard it so much.

John the baptist associated water baptism with death when he said the axe is laid to the root of the trees. John did that before Christ died, but he idea of death was certainly involved. This ties with Christ's death in Romans 6, and that is why those baptized by John had to be rebaptized in Jesus' name since Christ DIED.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Sam

Others believe that the death, burial, and resurrection happen when the person is justified by faith. Some think that the baptism spoken of in Romans chapter 6 is not water baptism. Some believe Romans 6 speaks of an operation of the Holy Spirit that happens at justification/salvation/regeneration. At the moment a person accepts Jesus as Savior, he is placed/baptized by the Spirit into Christ or into the Body of Christ. So, he is united with Christ in death, burial, and resurrection.

When you read Romans 6, just replace the word "baptized" with "placed" and realize it is not speaking of literal water baptism but of an operation of the Spirit.This is what is taught by John MacArthur in his study Bible.

notes from the MacArthur Bible:
6:3 baptized into Christ Jesus. This does not refer to water baptism. Paul is actually using the word "baptized" in a metaphorical sense, as we might in saying someone was immersed in his work, or underwent his baptism of fire when experiencing some trouble. All Christians have, by placing saving faith in Him, been spiritually immersed into the person of Christ, that is, united and identified with Him (cf 1 Cor 6:17 10:2; Gal 3:27; 1 Pet 3:21; 1 John 1:3...). Certainly water baptism pictures this reality, which is the purpose --to show the transformation of the justified. into His death. This means that immersion or identification is specifically with Christ's death and resurrection....
6:4 buried with Him. Since we are united by faith with Him, as baptism symbolizes, His death and burial become ours. newness of life. This is true, if, in Christ we died and were buried with Him, we have also been united with Him in His resurrection life. There is a new quality and character to our lives, a new principle of life. This speaks of the believer's regeneration (cf. Ezek 36:26; 2 Cor 5:17; Ga;6:15; Eph 4:24). Whereas sin describes the old life, righteousness describes the new.

this is from pages 1702 and 1703 of The MacArthur Study Bible copyright 1997

I respect MacArthur (and I'm definitely not a theologian). However, let's look at Rom 6 again.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (note the "like" as Christ)

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Verse 5 clearly says that the baptism is in the "likeness" of his death. So we see that this baptism spoken of is an allegory. Water Baptism clearly is an allegory of:
Death and Burial (we go in to the water)
Resurrection (we come out of the water)

However, it is still all based on faith. No faith in Jesus Christ and the baptism is null, void, and empty.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Many OP's believe repentance is DEATH WITH JESUS, baptism is BURIAL WITH JESUS and Spirit infilling is RESURRECTION WITH JESUS.

I disagree, personally. Baptism involves all the death, burial and resurrection! That is why Paul said in Romans 6 that baptism puts us into His death, and Col 2:11-12 says baptism sees us buried and risen with Christ. We are not "repented" into His death, but "baptized" into His death.

Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

...although Paul might have meant "risen with Him" is not experienced through baptism, but through a subsequent faith in God's operation.

Anyway, the point is that salvation is death, burial and resurrection with Jesus which occurred on the day of Pentecost for 3,000.

I always had the view that this portion of Colossians 2:12 - "through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead" was speaking on these lines in Romans 8:11 - "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you" and that both would also be relating to I Cor 15.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I always had the view that this portion of Colossians 2:12 - "through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead" was speaking on these lines in Romans 8:11 - "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you" and that both would also be relating to I Cor 15.

In my opinion, that is a common mistake because hardly anyone really gets into Romans 6 through 8 and teaches the full context, and I used to think that way too, until I looked more carefully at the overall context.

I do not believe Col 2:11-12 and Romans 8:11 are related to 1 Cor 15. Here is why. 1 Cor 15 is bodily resurrection. Romans 8:11-12 is not, because the context shows victory over sin and works of the flesh, which is a problem we will not have when we are physically resurrected.

Watch the context. This blessed me so much!

Romans 8:11-13 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Notice that because the Spirit quickens our mortal flesh, we do not have to live after the flesh. This is talking about the power of the Holy Ghost giving us victory so we do not commit works of the flesh. We will have no worries about living after the flesh after we resurrect when the trumpet sounds, anyway! So why mention that if this is the resurrection at His second coming?

(13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

The LIVING in verse 13 is victorious living over sin, and is the spiritual resurrection life that Paul is trying to relate to us that is totally apart from the physical resurrection that shall occur when we leave this world! Verse 13 repeats the same idea in verse 12 but in different words. Mortifying the deeds of the body is mortifying the works of the flesh. Deeds=works. Body=flesh. And this is done through the Spirit. In other words, when the Spirit quickens our mortal bodies, it mortifies the deeds or works of the flesh. And this is precisely what Gal 5 said:

Galatians 5:16-17 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Walking after the Spirit disallows the works of the flesh to operate in us. This is when the Spirit quickens our mortal bodies! So it is not a bodily resurrection out of the grave or when the rapture takes place and changes our bodies into immortal bodies, but Romans 8 is speaking about quickening of the Spirit WHILE WE STILL LIVE IN MORTAL BODIES. It quickens our mortal bodies to not sin, rather than the resurrection of 1 Cor 15 which quickens our mortal bodies to become immortal bodies.

This is the same difference with 1 Cor 15 and Col 2:12. Resurrection in Col and Romans is not physical resurrection of the body, but a spiritual quickening where we experience power over our flesh and its works and do the will of God in everyday life.

When you look closely at Romans 6 through 8, you realize that Paul was showing why we do not have to be ruled by sin in chapter 6, and chapter 7 shows experiences people have when they do not learn to walk after the Spirit -- they cannot do the good will of God they want to do -- and chapter 8 explains more details of what walking after the Spirit accomplishes. So it has nothing really to do with resurrection in our future when we are made immortal in body like 1 Cor 15 is talking about, but rather having victory in everyday life over sin.

Compare these two verses:

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.