What Happened At Pentecost in Acts 2?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

I agree with the resurrection of believers with Christ which you guys have said. I guess I was just confused as to how what you guys were saying relates to the OP. I thought OP was referring to speaking in tongues and such like...oh well (it's sometimes hard to communicate effectively on forums...lol)

Many OP's believe repentance is DEATH WITH JESUS, baptism is BURIAL WITH JESUS and Spirit infilling is RESURRECTION WITH JESUS.

I disagree, personally. Baptism involves all the death, burial and resurrection! That is why Paul said in Romans 6 that baptism puts us into His death, and Col 2:11-12 says baptism sees us buried and risen with Christ. We are not "repented" into His death, but "baptized" into His death.

Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

...although Paul might have meant "risen with Him" is not experienced through baptism, but through a subsequent faith in God's operation.

Anyway, the point is that salvation is death, burial and resurrection with Jesus which occurred on the day of Pentecost for 3,000.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by mfblume

TGBGT,

Did you ever look at your baptism as BAPTISM INTO CHRIST'S DEATH (Rom 6:3)? What did that mean to you?

I see baptism as being identified with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

This clearly shows I was baptized into his death, which is another reason I believe emphatically that baptism should performed in the Name of The Lord Jesus Christ (not just FSH). Baptism identifies us with what Christ did for us

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

This clearly shows again that water baptism is what is being talked about.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

...And I have been crucified with Him (Amen)

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

I see baptism as being identified with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

This clearly shows I was baptized into his death, which is another reason I believe emphatically that baptism should performed in the Name of The Lord Jesus Christ (not just FSH). Baptism identifies us with what Christ did for us

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

This clearly shows again that water baptism is what is being talked about.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

...And I have been crucified with Him (Amen)

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Amen. And notice verse 5. It says we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection if we have been in the likeness of his death. This is where resurrection comes into play. This is not the resurrection in our future, though. It is the resurrection that started our conversation. The reason I know this is a spiritual resurrection is because Romans 6:10-11 continues to teach that we are as much alive and risen from the dead as Jesus is. And that is the same resurrection noted in 6:13 where it says we need to present ourselves to God with the conscious awareness that we are "alive from the dead."

The resurrection of 1 Cor 15 is not the resurrection of Romans 6 because Paul said we ARE ALREADY alive from the dead and risen with Jesus when we got saved, but he had yet to experience the resurrection of 1 Cor 15 since he put that in the future tense.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Many OP's believe repentance is DEATH WITH JESUS, baptism is BURIAL WITH JESUS and Spirit infilling is RESURRECTION WITH JESUS.

I don't agree with this view either. For instance, consider the story of Cornelius.
That would mean Cornelius resurrected and then he was buried?? How can we bury someone who has already resurrected?

Nah..I think not

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by tgbtg

i don't agree with this view either. For instance, consider the story of cornelius.
That would mean cornelius resurrected and then he was buried?? How can we bury someone who has already resurrected?

Nah..i think not

exactly!

[houston]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

I don't agree with this view either. For instance, consider the story of Cornelius.
That would mean Cornelius resurrected and then he was buried?? How can we bury someone who has already resurrected?

Nah..I think not

Originally Posted by mfblume

exactly!

I received the Holy Ghost a few minutes before I was water baptized.

[Sam]

There are differences of opinion as to when the death, burial, and resurrection of a Christian happens. Many OP's believe that we die to sin when we repent. Then, when we are baptized we are buried with him and placed into His death. The Holy Ghost Baptism is considered the spiritual resurrection when we rise to walk in newness of life. A couple problems with this are that:
1. Some people repent but are never immersed or never receive the Holy Ghost Baptism.
2. If water baptism puts us into Christ's death, our salvation is dependent upon someone else who physically baptizes us.
3. Many people receive the Holy Ghost Baptism (resurrection) but are never baptized by immersion, or, if baptized by immersion are not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. So, they have died (repented) and have been resurrected (Holy Ghost Baptism) but never buried properly.

Bro Blume believes (if I understand what he has written) that the death, burial, and resurrection experience happens all at once at water baptism. That does away with the question of people who have been resurrected but never buried but still makes our death, burial, and resurrection dependent on a person who baptizes us (unless we use the older form of baptism/mikveh which is self-immersion).

Others believe that the death, burial, and resurrection happen when the person is justified by faith. Some think that the baptism spoken of in Romans chapter 6 is not water baptism. Some believe Romans 6 speaks of an operation of the Holy Spirit that happens at justification/salvation/regeneration. At the moment a person accepts Jesus as Savior, he is placed/baptized by the Spirit into Christ or into the Body of Christ. So, he is united with Christ in death, burial, and resurrection.

When you read Romans 6, just replace the word "baptized" with "placed" and realize it is not speaking of literal water baptism but of an operation of the Spirit.This is what is taught by John MacArthur in his study Bible.

notes from the MacArthur Bible:
6:3 baptized into Christ Jesus. This does not refer to water baptism. Paul is actually using the word "baptized" in a metaphorical sense, as we might in saying someone was immersed in his work, or underwent his baptism of fire when experiencing some trouble. All Christians have, by placing saving faith in Him, been spiritually immersed into the person of Christ, that is, united and identified with Him (cf 1 Cor 6:17 10:2; Gal 3:27; 1 Pet 3:21; 1 John 1:3...). Certainly water baptism pictures this reality, which is the purpose --to show the transformation of the justified. into His death. This means that immersion or identification is specifically with Christ's death and resurrection....
6:4 buried with Him. Since we are united by faith with Him, as baptism symbolizes, His death and burial become ours. newness of life. This is true, if, in Christ we died and were buried with Him, we have also been united with Him in His resurrection life. There is a new quality and character to our lives, a new principle of life. This speaks of the believer's regeneration (cf. Ezek 36:26; 2 Cor 5:17; Ga;6:15; Eph 4:24). Whereas sin describes the old life, righteousness describes the new.

this is from pages 1702 and 1703 of The MacArthur Study Bible copyright 1997

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. And notice verse 5. It says we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection if we have been in the likeness of his death. This is where resurrection comes into play. This is not the resurrection in our future, though. It is the resurrection that started our conversation. The reason I know this is a spiritual resurrection is because Romans 6:10-11 continues to teach that we are as much alive and risen from the dead as Jesus is. And that is the same resurrection noted in 6:13 where it says we need to present ourselves to God with the conscious awareness that we are "alive from the dead."

I agree with the emboldened that we resurrected with Jesus Christ. We were dead unto our sins previously and now we're alive unto God.
However, I still believe in a bodily resurrection of believers according I Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sam

There are differences of opinion as to when the death, burial, and resurrection of a Christian happens. Many OP's believe that we die to sin when we repent. Then, when we are baptized we are buried with him and placed into His death. The Holy Ghost Baptism is considered the spiritual resurrection when we rise to walk in newness of life. A couple problems with this are that:
1. Some people repent but are never immersed or never receive the Holy Ghost Baptism.
2. If water baptism puts us into Christ's death, our salvation is dependent upon someone else who physically baptizes us.
3. Many people receive the Holy Ghost Baptism (resurrection) but are never baptized by immersion, or, if baptized by immersion are not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. So, they have died (repented) and have been resurrected (Holy Ghost Baptism) but never buried properly.

Bro Blume believes (if I understand what he has written) that the death, burial, and resurrection experience happens all at once at water baptism. That does away with the question of people who have been resurrected but never buried.

I am not dogmatic about that, since Col 2:12 may mean baptism is the death and burial, and a subsequent faith in God's operation is the resurrection. Or it may mean that since we rise when we come forth out of baptism, we are resurrecting. At any rate, this brings up the contrast you make below about baptism in Romans 6. I believe it is involved with water baptism, since that is what water baptism is meant to show, anyway.

Others believe that the death, burial, and resurrection happen when the person is justified by faith. Some think that the baptism spoken of in Romans chapter 6 is not water baptism. Some believe Romans 6 speaks of an operation of the Holy Spirit that happens at justification/salvation/regeneration. At the moment a person accepts Jesus as Savior, he is placed/baptized by the Spirit into Christ or into the Body of Christ. So, he is united with Christ in death, burial, and resurrection.

When you read Romans 6, just replace the word "baptized" with "placed" and realize it is not speaking of literal water baptism but of an operation of the Spirit.This is what is taught by John MacArthur in his study Bible.

notes from the MacArthur Bible:
6:3 baptized into Christ Jesus. This does not refer to water baptism. Paul is actually using the word "baptized" in a metaphorical sense, as we might in saying someone was immersed in his work, or underwent his baptism of fire when experiencing some trouble. All Christians have, by placing saving faith in Him, been spiritually immersed into the person of Christ, that is, united and identified with Him (cf 1 Cor 6:17 10:2; Gal 3:27; 1 Pet 3:21; 1 John 1:3...). Certainly water baptism pictures this reality, which is the purpose --to show the transformation of the justified. into His death. This means that immersion or identification is specifically with Christ's death and resurrection....
6:4 buried with Him. Since we are united by faith with Him, as baptism symbolizes, His death and burial become ours. newness of life. This is true, if, in Christ we died and were buried with Him, we have also been united with Him in His resurrection life. There is a new quality and character to our lives, a new principle of life. This speaks of the believer's regeneration (cf. Ezek 36:26; 2 Cor 5:17; Ga;6:15; Eph 4:24). Whereas sin describes the old life, righteousness describes the new.

this is from pages 1702 and 1703 of The MacArthur Study Bible copyright 1997

I heard the idea that baptism in Romans 6 is "waterless", but tend to disagree. When I see water baptism demanded so stringently in the Acts of the apostles, I see it with the understanding of Romans 6's baptism. This shows us that the literal water is not the burial, although Paul is speaking of this burial while being water baptized, since Romans 6 teaches we were buried with Christ IN HIS TOMB IN WHICH HE WAS BURIED 2000 years ago. So why would we think the water is our actual burial. For some reason God demands physical object lessons in order to assist our faith, as in communion supper.

When we think of water baptism in the way Paul taught Romans 6's baptism into His death, then water baptism is much more meaningful and better understood. Otherwise it is an empty ritual without meaning which is why people disregard it so much.

John the baptist associated water baptism with death when he said the axe is laid to the root of the trees. John did that before Christ died, but he idea of death was certainly involved. This ties with Christ's death in Romans 6, and that is why those baptized by John had to be rebaptized in Jesus' name since Christ DIED.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Sam

Others believe that the death, burial, and resurrection happen when the person is justified by faith. Some think that the baptism spoken of in Romans chapter 6 is not water baptism. Some believe Romans 6 speaks of an operation of the Holy Spirit that happens at justification/salvation/regeneration. At the moment a person accepts Jesus as Savior, he is placed/baptized by the Spirit into Christ or into the Body of Christ. So, he is united with Christ in death, burial, and resurrection.

When you read Romans 6, just replace the word "baptized" with "placed" and realize it is not speaking of literal water baptism but of an operation of the Spirit.This is what is taught by John MacArthur in his study Bible.

notes from the MacArthur Bible:
6:3 baptized into Christ Jesus. This does not refer to water baptism. Paul is actually using the word "baptized" in a metaphorical sense, as we might in saying someone was immersed in his work, or underwent his baptism of fire when experiencing some trouble. All Christians have, by placing saving faith in Him, been spiritually immersed into the person of Christ, that is, united and identified with Him (cf 1 Cor 6:17 10:2; Gal 3:27; 1 Pet 3:21; 1 John 1:3...). Certainly water baptism pictures this reality, which is the purpose --to show the transformation of the justified. into His death. This means that immersion or identification is specifically with Christ's death and resurrection....
6:4 buried with Him. Since we are united by faith with Him, as baptism symbolizes, His death and burial become ours. newness of life. This is true, if, in Christ we died and were buried with Him, we have also been united with Him in His resurrection life. There is a new quality and character to our lives, a new principle of life. This speaks of the believer's regeneration (cf. Ezek 36:26; 2 Cor 5:17; Ga;6:15; Eph 4:24). Whereas sin describes the old life, righteousness describes the new.

this is from pages 1702 and 1703 of The MacArthur Study Bible copyright 1997

I respect MacArthur (and I'm definitely not a theologian). However, let's look at Rom 6 again.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (note the "like" as Christ)

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Verse 5 clearly says that the baptism is in the "likeness" of his death. So we see that this baptism spoken of is an allegory. Water Baptism clearly is an allegory of:
Death and Burial (we go in to the water)
Resurrection (we come out of the water)

However, it is still all based on faith. No faith in Jesus Christ and the baptism is null, void, and empty.