What Happened At Pentecost in Acts 2?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Many OP's believe repentance is DEATH WITH JESUS, baptism is BURIAL WITH JESUS and Spirit infilling is RESURRECTION WITH JESUS.

I disagree, personally. Baptism involves all the death, burial and resurrection! That is why Paul said in Romans 6 that baptism puts us into His death, and Col 2:11-12 says baptism sees us buried and risen with Christ. We are not "repented" into His death, but "baptized" into His death.

Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

...although Paul might have meant "risen with Him" is not experienced through baptism, but through a subsequent faith in God's operation.

Anyway, the point is that salvation is death, burial and resurrection with Jesus which occurred on the day of Pentecost for 3,000.

I always had the view that this portion of Colossians 2:12 - "through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead" was speaking on these lines in Romans 8:11 - "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you" and that both would also be relating to I Cor 15.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I always had the view that this portion of Colossians 2:12 - "through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead" was speaking on these lines in Romans 8:11 - "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you" and that both would also be relating to I Cor 15.

In my opinion, that is a common mistake because hardly anyone really gets into Romans 6 through 8 and teaches the full context, and I used to think that way too, until I looked more carefully at the overall context.

I do not believe Col 2:11-12 and Romans 8:11 are related to 1 Cor 15. Here is why. 1 Cor 15 is bodily resurrection. Romans 8:11-12 is not, because the context shows victory over sin and works of the flesh, which is a problem we will not have when we are physically resurrected.

Watch the context. This blessed me so much!

Romans 8:11-13 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Notice that because the Spirit quickens our mortal flesh, we do not have to live after the flesh. This is talking about the power of the Holy Ghost giving us victory so we do not commit works of the flesh. We will have no worries about living after the flesh after we resurrect when the trumpet sounds, anyway! So why mention that if this is the resurrection at His second coming?

(13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

The LIVING in verse 13 is victorious living over sin, and is the spiritual resurrection life that Paul is trying to relate to us that is totally apart from the physical resurrection that shall occur when we leave this world! Verse 13 repeats the same idea in verse 12 but in different words. Mortifying the deeds of the body is mortifying the works of the flesh. Deeds=works. Body=flesh. And this is done through the Spirit. In other words, when the Spirit quickens our mortal bodies, it mortifies the deeds or works of the flesh. And this is precisely what Gal 5 said:

Galatians 5:16-17 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Walking after the Spirit disallows the works of the flesh to operate in us. This is when the Spirit quickens our mortal bodies! So it is not a bodily resurrection out of the grave or when the rapture takes place and changes our bodies into immortal bodies, but Romans 8 is speaking about quickening of the Spirit WHILE WE STILL LIVE IN MORTAL BODIES. It quickens our mortal bodies to not sin, rather than the resurrection of 1 Cor 15 which quickens our mortal bodies to become immortal bodies.

This is the same difference with 1 Cor 15 and Col 2:12. Resurrection in Col and Romans is not physical resurrection of the body, but a spiritual quickening where we experience power over our flesh and its works and do the will of God in everyday life.

When you look closely at Romans 6 through 8, you realize that Paul was showing why we do not have to be ruled by sin in chapter 6, and chapter 7 shows experiences people have when they do not learn to walk after the Spirit -- they cannot do the good will of God they want to do -- and chapter 8 explains more details of what walking after the Spirit accomplishes. So it has nothing really to do with resurrection in our future when we are made immortal in body like 1 Cor 15 is talking about, but rather having victory in everyday life over sin.

Compare these two verses:

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is a common mistake because hardly anyone really gets into Romans 6 through 8 and teaches the full context, and I used to think that way too, until the Lord really opened this up to me.

I do not believe Col 2:11-12 and Romans 8:11 are related to 1 Cor 15. Here is why. 1 Cor 15 is bodily resurrection. Romans 8:11-12 is not, because the context shows victory over sin and works of the flesh, which is a problem we will not have when we are physically resurrected.

Watch the context. This blessed me so much!

Romans 8:11-13 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Notice that because the Spirit quickens our mortal flesh, we do not have to live after the flesh. This is talking about the power of the Holy Ghost giving us victory so we do not commit works of the flesh. We will have no worries about living after the flesh after we resurrect when the trumpet sounds, anyway! So why mention that if this is the resurrection at His second coming?

(13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

The LIVING in verse 13 is victorious living over sin, and is the spiritual resurrection life that Paul is trying to relate to us that is totally apart from the physical resurrection that shall occur when we leave this world! Verse 13 repeats the same idea in verse 12 but in different words. Mortifying the deeds of the body is mortifying the works of the flesh. Deeds=works. Body=flesh. And this is done through the Spirit. In other words, when the Spirit quickens our mortal bodies, it mortifies the deeds or works of the flesh. And this is precisely what Gal 5 said:

Galatians 5:16-17 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Walking after the Spirit disallows the works of the flesh to operate in us. This is when the Spirit quickens our mortal bodies! So it is not a bodily resurrection out of the grave or when the rapture takes place and changes our bodies into immortal bodies, but Romans 8 is speaking about quickening of the Spirit WHILE WE STILL LIVE IN MORTAL BODIES. It quickens our mortal bodies to not sin, rather than the resurrection of 1 Cor 15 which quickens our mortal bodies to become immortal bodies.

This is the same difference with 1 Cor 15 and Col 2:12. Resurrection in Col and Romans is not physical resurrection of the body, but a spiritual quickening where we experience power over our flesh and its works and do the will of God in everyday life.

When you look closely at Romans 6 through 8, you realize that Paul was showing why we do not have to be ruled by sin in chapter 6, and chapter 7 shows experiences people have when they do not learn to walk after the Spirit -- they cannot do the good will of God they want to do -- and chapter 8 explains more details of what walking after the Spirit accomplishes. So it has nothing really to do with resurrection in our future when we are made immortal in body like 1 Cor 15 is talking about, but rather having victory in everyday life over sin.

Compare these two verses:

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I am currently in chapter 5 of Romans, so I will study this out slowly, but at the outset, what you have written sounds good and reasonable.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I am currently in chapter 5 of Romans, so I will study this out slowly, but at the outset, what you have written sounds good and reasonable.

I actually minister on this view the majority of the time! lol. Romans 6:13 says we are already "alive from the dead" in the context of resurrection referred to in verses 5 and 11, and simply need to realize that. Therefore, according to that context, I think that is the same resurrection noted in 8:11.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I actually minister on this view the majority of the time! lol. Romans 6:13 says we are already "alive from the dead" in the context of resurrection referred to in verses 5 and 11, and simply need to realize that. Therefore, according to that context, I think that is the same resurrection noted in 8:11.

I think I read you saying that you can't embrace futurism because it seems everyone is waiting around for the resurrection instead of realizing our potential as the Kingdom of God on earth.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I think I read you saying that you can't embrace futurism because it seems everyone is waiting around for the resurrection instead of realizing our potential as the Kingdom of God on earth.

YES! That is one MAJOR flaw in futurism. They think the KINGDOM is not here and we are not ruling with Christ, despite John 3 and Ep 2:6. Some futurists claim the kingdom is here only in a spiritual manner, but the greater kingdom is physical and yet to come. I think Jesus disallows a physical kingdom by having said it does not come with observation -- is not something you can see -- and we cannot say Lo, here it is, or Lo, there it is. And he never said that would change. However, Proverbs says the greater kingdom is not taking physical cities but our OWN SPIRITS! I asked some futurists about that one, and they did not respond.

Proverbs 16:32 He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

YES! That is one MAJOR flaw in futurism. They think the KINGDOM is not here and we are not ruling with Christ, despite John 3 and Ep 2:6. Some futurists claim the kingdom is here only in a spiritual manner, but the greater kingdom is physical and yet to come. However, Proverbs says the greater kingdom is not taking physical cities but our OWN SPIRITS! I asked some futurists about that one, and they did not respond.

Proverbs 16:32 He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.

Yes, I agree with what you are saying here. I see that. So, where does it begin? Understanding our role in the Kingdom of God, which would then enable us to know that we can walk after the Spirit and not the flesh. It is as though we expect to make mistakes because of our human nature. I also don't think we would want to take it so far as to think we are infallible. So, where do we find a balance and not push ourselves over the top?

I've seen people start out, powerful, in the spirit and end up a wreck, KWIM? The don't seem to be able to find a balance. So, by that example, others pull back in fear. I have so many things to say, but I don't have the time to sit and articulate that as well as I would like.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

...
I do not believe Col 2:11-12 and Romans 8:11 are related to 1 Cor 15. Here is why. 1 Cor 15 is bodily resurrection. Romans 8:11-12 is not, because the context shows victory over sin and works of the flesh, which is a problem we will not have when we are physically resurrected.
...

That's the way I see it also.
Colossians 2 and Romans 6 speak of a spiritual resurrection which every child of God has already experienced and 1 Corinthians 15 speaks of a physical resurrection that is future.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sam

That's the way I see it also.
Colossians 2 and Romans 6 speak of a spiritual resurrection which every child of God has already experienced and 1 Corinthians 15 speaks of a physical resurrection that is future.

Amen and amen!

Originally Posted by Sam

aybe John was a realist and knew that even though we are dead to sin and have indwelling power to resist sin, being human, we might sin.

Exactly! Praise God!