What Happened At Pentecost in Acts 2?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Many OP's believe repentance is DEATH WITH JESUS, baptism is BURIAL WITH JESUS and Spirit infilling is RESURRECTION WITH JESUS.

I disagree, personally. Baptism involves all the death, burial and resurrection! That is why Paul said in Romans 6 that baptism puts us into His death, and Col 2:11-12 says baptism sees us buried and risen with Christ. We are not "repented" into His death, but "baptized" into His death.

Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

...although Paul might have meant "risen with Him" is not experienced through baptism, but through a subsequent faith in God's operation.

Anyway, the point is that salvation is death, burial and resurrection with Jesus which occurred on the day of Pentecost for 3,000.

I always had the view that this portion of Colossians 2:12 - "through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead" was speaking on these lines in Romans 8:11 - "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you" and that both would also be relating to I Cor 15.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

There are seven things that should prove instructive.

First, read Joel 2:28-32 and compare with Acts 2:1-22.
Second, read Psalms 16 and compare with Acts 2:23-33
Third, read Psalms 110 and compare with Acts 2:34-37

So, the question the multitudes asked in Acts 2:37, "... what shall we do?" was not, "... what shall we do [to be saved]?", as so many like to add to the verse. Rather, it was more in line with, "... what shall we do [now]?" From scripture they already knew what to do to be 'saved'. From living by faith (Habakkuk 2:4) to the circumcision of the heart (Deuteronomy 10:16; 30:6).

This I don't understand. You are saying that they are not asking how to be saved, but "what do we do now"?

When Peter answered them he talked about "remission of sins" and what they needed to do to receive that remission. It seems to actually be a salvational answer to their question. That makes it not too far off to interpret their question as asking how they can be saved.

Peter, in chapter two, goes over everything they are familiar with that is written about the Messiah that was to come and how that changed the Law they were under.

He says in verse 40, "And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation."

Verse 47 says, "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

It appears, to me, that Acts 2 is an excellent instructional message, to the hearers, on how to be saved under the New Covenant.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I always had the view that this portion of Colossians 2:12 - "through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead" was speaking on these lines in Romans 8:11 - "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you" and that both would also be relating to I Cor 15.

In my opinion, that is a common mistake because hardly anyone really gets into Romans 6 through 8 and teaches the full context, and I used to think that way too, until I looked more carefully at the overall context.

I do not believe Col 2:11-12 and Romans 8:11 are related to 1 Cor 15. Here is why. 1 Cor 15 is bodily resurrection. Romans 8:11-12 is not, because the context shows victory over sin and works of the flesh, which is a problem we will not have when we are physically resurrected.

Watch the context. This blessed me so much!

Romans 8:11-13 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Notice that because the Spirit quickens our mortal flesh, we do not have to live after the flesh. This is talking about the power of the Holy Ghost giving us victory so we do not commit works of the flesh. We will have no worries about living after the flesh after we resurrect when the trumpet sounds, anyway! So why mention that if this is the resurrection at His second coming?

(13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

The LIVING in verse 13 is victorious living over sin, and is the spiritual resurrection life that Paul is trying to relate to us that is totally apart from the physical resurrection that shall occur when we leave this world! Verse 13 repeats the same idea in verse 12 but in different words. Mortifying the deeds of the body is mortifying the works of the flesh. Deeds=works. Body=flesh. And this is done through the Spirit. In other words, when the Spirit quickens our mortal bodies, it mortifies the deeds or works of the flesh. And this is precisely what Gal 5 said:

Galatians 5:16-17 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Walking after the Spirit disallows the works of the flesh to operate in us. This is when the Spirit quickens our mortal bodies! So it is not a bodily resurrection out of the grave or when the rapture takes place and changes our bodies into immortal bodies, but Romans 8 is speaking about quickening of the Spirit WHILE WE STILL LIVE IN MORTAL BODIES. It quickens our mortal bodies to not sin, rather than the resurrection of 1 Cor 15 which quickens our mortal bodies to become immortal bodies.

This is the same difference with 1 Cor 15 and Col 2:12. Resurrection in Col and Romans is not physical resurrection of the body, but a spiritual quickening where we experience power over our flesh and its works and do the will of God in everyday life.

When you look closely at Romans 6 through 8, you realize that Paul was showing why we do not have to be ruled by sin in chapter 6, and chapter 7 shows experiences people have when they do not learn to walk after the Spirit -- they cannot do the good will of God they want to do -- and chapter 8 explains more details of what walking after the Spirit accomplishes. So it has nothing really to do with resurrection in our future when we are made immortal in body like 1 Cor 15 is talking about, but rather having victory in everyday life over sin.

Compare these two verses:

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is a common mistake because hardly anyone really gets into Romans 6 through 8 and teaches the full context, and I used to think that way too, until the Lord really opened this up to me.

I do not believe Col 2:11-12 and Romans 8:11 are related to 1 Cor 15. Here is why. 1 Cor 15 is bodily resurrection. Romans 8:11-12 is not, because the context shows victory over sin and works of the flesh, which is a problem we will not have when we are physically resurrected.

Watch the context. This blessed me so much!

Romans 8:11-13 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Notice that because the Spirit quickens our mortal flesh, we do not have to live after the flesh. This is talking about the power of the Holy Ghost giving us victory so we do not commit works of the flesh. We will have no worries about living after the flesh after we resurrect when the trumpet sounds, anyway! So why mention that if this is the resurrection at His second coming?

(13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

The LIVING in verse 13 is victorious living over sin, and is the spiritual resurrection life that Paul is trying to relate to us that is totally apart from the physical resurrection that shall occur when we leave this world! Verse 13 repeats the same idea in verse 12 but in different words. Mortifying the deeds of the body is mortifying the works of the flesh. Deeds=works. Body=flesh. And this is done through the Spirit. In other words, when the Spirit quickens our mortal bodies, it mortifies the deeds or works of the flesh. And this is precisely what Gal 5 said:

Galatians 5:16-17 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Walking after the Spirit disallows the works of the flesh to operate in us. This is when the Spirit quickens our mortal bodies! So it is not a bodily resurrection out of the grave or when the rapture takes place and changes our bodies into immortal bodies, but Romans 8 is speaking about quickening of the Spirit WHILE WE STILL LIVE IN MORTAL BODIES. It quickens our mortal bodies to not sin, rather than the resurrection of 1 Cor 15 which quickens our mortal bodies to become immortal bodies.

This is the same difference with 1 Cor 15 and Col 2:12. Resurrection in Col and Romans is not physical resurrection of the body, but a spiritual quickening where we experience power over our flesh and its works and do the will of God in everyday life.

When you look closely at Romans 6 through 8, you realize that Paul was showing why we do not have to be ruled by sin in chapter 6, and chapter 7 shows experiences people have when they do not learn to walk after the Spirit -- they cannot do the good will of God they want to do -- and chapter 8 explains more details of what walking after the Spirit accomplishes. So it has nothing really to do with resurrection in our future when we are made immortal in body like 1 Cor 15 is talking about, but rather having victory in everyday life over sin.

Compare these two verses:

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I am currently in chapter 5 of Romans, so I will study this out slowly, but at the outset, what you have written sounds good and reasonable.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I am currently in chapter 5 of Romans, so I will study this out slowly, but at the outset, what you have written sounds good and reasonable.

I actually minister on this view the majority of the time! lol. Romans 6:13 says we are already "alive from the dead" in the context of resurrection referred to in verses 5 and 11, and simply need to realize that. Therefore, according to that context, I think that is the same resurrection noted in 8:11.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I actually minister on this view the majority of the time! lol. Romans 6:13 says we are already "alive from the dead" in the context of resurrection referred to in verses 5 and 11, and simply need to realize that. Therefore, according to that context, I think that is the same resurrection noted in 8:11.

I think I read you saying that you can't embrace futurism because it seems everyone is waiting around for the resurrection instead of realizing our potential as the Kingdom of God on earth.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I think I read you saying that you can't embrace futurism because it seems everyone is waiting around for the resurrection instead of realizing our potential as the Kingdom of God on earth.

YES! That is one MAJOR flaw in futurism. They think the KINGDOM is not here and we are not ruling with Christ, despite John 3 and Ep 2:6. Some futurists claim the kingdom is here only in a spiritual manner, but the greater kingdom is physical and yet to come. I think Jesus disallows a physical kingdom by having said it does not come with observation -- is not something you can see -- and we cannot say Lo, here it is, or Lo, there it is. And he never said that would change. However, Proverbs says the greater kingdom is not taking physical cities but our OWN SPIRITS! I asked some futurists about that one, and they did not respond.

Proverbs 16:32 He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

YES! That is one MAJOR flaw in futurism. They think the KINGDOM is not here and we are not ruling with Christ, despite John 3 and Ep 2:6. Some futurists claim the kingdom is here only in a spiritual manner, but the greater kingdom is physical and yet to come. However, Proverbs says the greater kingdom is not taking physical cities but our OWN SPIRITS! I asked some futurists about that one, and they did not respond.

Proverbs 16:32 He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.

Yes, I agree with what you are saying here. I see that. So, where does it begin? Understanding our role in the Kingdom of God, which would then enable us to know that we can walk after the Spirit and not the flesh. It is as though we expect to make mistakes because of our human nature. I also don't think we would want to take it so far as to think we are infallible. So, where do we find a balance and not push ourselves over the top?

I've seen people start out, powerful, in the spirit and end up a wreck, KWIM? The don't seem to be able to find a balance. So, by that example, others pull back in fear. I have so many things to say, but I don't have the time to sit and articulate that as well as I would like.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yes, I agree with what you are saying here. I see that. So, where does it begin? Understanding our role in the Kingdom of God, which would then enable us to know that we can walk after the Spirit and not the flesh. It is as though we expect to make mistakes because of our human nature. I also don't think we would want to take it so far as to think we are infallible. So, where do we find a balance and not push ourselves over the top?

I've seen people start out, powerful, in the spirit and end up a wreck, KWIM? The don't seem to be able to find a balance. So, by that example, others pull back in fear. I have so many things to say, but I don't have the time to sit and articulate that as well as I would like.

I think we have to go back to the cross and allow Paul to "walk us through" his teachings in Romans 6 so we understand where we are and who we are in Christ. Maybe it is better to say we need to learn who Christ is in us.

Paul hypothetically asked a question people might pose after hearing his words at the end of Romans 5 saying grace abounds much more where sin abounds. He hypothetically puts himself in the shoes of a listener and asks if that means we should therefore sin that grace may abound. Then he drops a bombshell and says "God forbid we think that way! Why would we even commit sin if we are supposed to be dead to sin?"

Then this makes the reader's jaw drop in awe, and ask if there really is a possibility that we can actually live above a trend of committing sins. So Paul continues to ask, "Don't you know, and have you never learned, that your baptism into Jesus was a baptism into His death?" His death became our deaths when we were baptized into Him. And he said this occurred for the purpose of us living a resurrection life of victory over sin (verse 5).

The reason we get baptized into Jesus' death is because our goal is to have the victory Jesus had when He resurrected. That is why we read in verse 7 that we are freed from sin when we die. Verse 8 says that dying with Jesus simply follows on as naturally as can be to living with Him in His resurrection life he experienced after his death.

So the key is to grasp and let sink in the truths and ramifications of being dead and risen with Christ. This is where we begin. And when we realize we not only died, were buried, resurrected and ascended with Jesus, but we also ARE SEATED WITH HIM IN THE KINGDOM, then is when KINGDOM revelation begins!

And THAT aspect is focused upon in Eph 1:18 - 2:6.

I believe that is the starting point, See how it focuses on the cross? But it is no longer a single portion revelation that one man, Jesus, died and is now on the throne. It is a double portion revelation that we died with Him and are seated with Him on the throne.

This is all intended to put CONFIDENCE in us that we really can live in kingdom victory! It all focuses on how we are intended to see ourselves as much resurrected and on the throne in victory over sin as Jesus is! Romans 6:10-11 REALLY drives that home!

If you are studying Romans and are now at chapter 5, you're in for the best part of Romans beginning in chapter 6!

Romans 6 removes our expectation to sin, by showing us and helping us realize we can have confidence by understanding that as much as Jesus died to sin and is alive in resurrection power over sin, SO ARE WE! Once we "get" that concept, we will have the confidence we need.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I think we have to go back to the cross and allow Paul to "walk us through" his teachings in Romans 6 so we understand where we are and who we are in Christ. Maybe it is better to say we need to learn who Christ is in us.

Paul hypothetically asked a question people might pose after hearing his words at the end of Romans 5 saying grace abounds much more where sin abounds. He hypothetically puts himself in the shoes of a listener and asks if that means we should therefore sin that grace may abound. Then he drops a bombshell and says "God forbid we think that way! Why would we even commit sin if we are supposed to be dead to sin?"

Then this makes the reader's jaw drop in awe, and ask if there really is a possibility that we can actually live above a trend of committing sins. So Paul continues to ask, "Don't you know, and have you never learned, that your baptism into Jesus was a baptism into His death?" His death became our deaths when we were baptized into Him. And he said this occurred for the purpose of us living a resurrection life of victory over sin (verse 5).

The reason we get baptized into Jesus' death is because our goal is to have the victory Jesus had when He resurrected. That is why we read in verse 7 that we are freed from sin when we die. Verse 8 says that dying with Jesus simply follows on as naturally as can be to living with Him in His resurrection life he experienced after his death.

So the key is to grasp and let sink in the truths and ramifications of being dead and risen with Christ. This is where we begin. And when we realize we not only died, were buried, resurrected and ascended with Jesus, but we also ARE SEATED WITH HIM IN THE KINGDOM, then is when KINGDOM revelation begins!

And THAT aspect is focused upon in Eph 1:18 - 2:6.

I believe that is the starting point, See how it focuses on the cross? But it is no longer a single portion revelation that one man, Jesus, died and is now on the throne. It is a double portion revelation that we died with Him and are seated with Him on the throne.

This is all intended to put CONFIDENCE in us that we really can live in kingdom victory! It all focuses on how we are intended to see ourselves as much resurrected and on the throne in victory over sin as Jesus is! Romans 6:10-11 REALLY drives that home!

If you are studying Romans and are now at chapter 5, you're in for the best part of Romans beginning in chapter 6!

Romans 6 removes our expectation to sin, by showing us and helping us realize we can have confidence by understanding that as much as Jesus died to sin and is alive in resurrection power over sin, SO ARE WE! Once we "get" that concept, we will have the confidence we need.

That is almost more than understanding, it seems it needs to be a revelation. LOL! Good post! Thanks again!