HA! He's a perv himself! The Banning Pastor

RandyWayne · #1 12-01-2010, 02:03 PM

You (us) can talk about restoration till the cows come home and how God can do it instantly or over the long haul, or whether He should do it at all. BUT... How long does it take to restore trust? Especially when it has been completely shattered -like a pastor who has embezzled, molested, or cheated on his wife. Is someones word of knowledge that "he has been restored!" good enough for him to restart his job the next morning? Would you trust him with your money, wife (if she was pretty), or kids after such a word of knowledge was given?

Sabby · #2 12-01-2010, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

You (us) can talk about restoration till the cows come home and how God can do it instantly or over the long haul, or whether He should do it at all. BUT... How long does it take to restore trust? Especially when it has been completely shattered -like a pastor who has embezzled, molested, or cheated on his wife. Is someones word of knowledge that "he has been restored!" good enough for him to restart his job the next morning? Would you trust him with your money, wife (if she was pretty), or kids after such a word of knowledge was given?

WWJD

Sabby · #3 12-01-2010, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabby

WWJD

And I'll ask the question 'til the cows come home...who is is accountable to God for restoration?

Sometimes parishioners want the ministry to do it all, and they take a pass on the heavier things of the spirit. I'd give examples but let's just get as basic as "doing ministry". What does it mean to be like Jesus Christ? Did Jesus REALLY mean 70 times 7? Did He really take risks?

I completely understand your points and your reasons behind them but that doesn't answer the question.
Are we "spiritual" enough to restore? I'm not excusing the sin, justifying the behavior, etc, al. I'm asking, is the church "non-carnal" enough to do this?
We are not where we need to be in the church until we can restore in the spirit of meekness.

Whether the story of the prodigal is from the Father's viewpoint, the older brother's viewpoint, or that of the prodigal himself, the point of the story (and our relationship with God in general) is all about relationships and restoration.

Aquila · #4 12-02-2010, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

You (us) can talk about restoration till the cows come home and how God can do it instantly or over the long haul, or whether He should do it at all. BUT... How long does it take to restore trust? Especially when it has been completely shattered -like a pastor who has embezzled, molested, or cheated on his wife. Is someones word of knowledge that "he has been restored!" good enough for him to restart his job the next morning? Would you trust him with your money, wife (if she was pretty), or kids after such a word of knowledge was given?

Randy... remember... Scripture shows us a church that is quite different from our modern model. They were house churches with multiple elders. If an elder fell into sin, they were like a family that restored him. They would encourage that he be involved in the educational discussions again. They wouldn't side line him or relegate him to being quiet in a corner of the home or some pew.

Today, the corporate model of church makes it VERY questionable as to if we should restore a person to such a position. The money, the power, the potential for continued abuse, the sheer numbers of good men who would do well in the "position". I see it as a structural issue.

An elder in a house church could be restored relatively quickly, the group acting like a family wanting to see him "back" to where he was spiritually.

whoami · #5 12-02-2010, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

An elder in a house church could be restored relatively quickly, the group acting like a family wanting to see him "back" to where he was spiritually.

Based on my experience I disagree with this... in the house churches I've been involved with someone who participated in this kind of deception would be welcomed back upon repentence, but would have a long journey of rebuilding trust before they were ever put in an elder position again.

Aquila · #6 12-02-2010, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoami

Based on my experience I disagree with this... in the house churches I've been involved with someone who participated in this kind of deception would be welcomed back upon repentence, but would have a long journey of rebuilding trust before they were ever put in an elder position again.

Do you believe a fallen elder could be restored among the elders of a house church easier than a large corporate body like a traditional church with official positions, salaries, benefits, etc.? I'm not saying it wouldn't be a long process in either case. I'm just comparing the two.

whoami · #7 12-02-2010, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do you believe a fallen elder could be restored among the elders of a house church easier than a large corporate body like a traditional church with official positions, salaries, benefits, etc.? I'm not saying it wouldn't be a long process in either case. I'm just comparing the two.

It would just depend on the church... I understand what you're saying now, I took your last post as saying that house churches would be quick to restore an elder who'd fallen away and that's not what I've seen at all.

RandyWayne · #8 12-02-2010, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do you believe a fallen elder could be restored among the elders of a house church easier than a large corporate body like a traditional church with official positions, salaries, benefits, etc.? I'm not saying it wouldn't be a long process in either case. I'm just comparing the two.

I do believe that in the smaller house church setting it would be much harder to commit certain crimes/sins in the first place since there simply is not nearly as many opportunities to hide things. It would be much easier for a pastor to embezzle money in a church of 300 or more with a classic business structure then a group of 12 in a someones home.

And again, trust is a key word in these situations. I do believe 100% that Jesus himself would tell you to forgive someone in any given situation but you would be a fool to trust them a 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) time with your money/wife/children again, or whatever trust they abused in the first place, at least without major modifications to the previous situation. And why would you want to throw the same temptation at them? If a man cheats on his wife with his secretary and the wife somehow forgives him, would she be wrong to insist that he no longer work alone with this same secretary despite his pleadings of being a "restore man"?

whoami · #9 12-02-2010, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

And again, trust is a key word in these situations. I do believe 100% that Jesus himself would tell you to forgive someone in any given situation but you would be a fool to trust them with your money/wife/children again at least without major modifications to the previous situation.

Aquila · #10 12-02-2010, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I do believe that in the smaller house church setting it would be much harder to commit certain crimes/sins in the first place since there simply is not nearly as many opportunities to hide things. It would be much easier for a pastor to embezzle money in a church of 300 or more with a classic business structure then a group of 12 in a someones home.

And again, trust is a key word in these situations. I do believe 100% that Jesus himself would tell you to forgive someone in any given situation but you would be a fool to trust them with your money/wife/children again at least without major modifications to the previous situation.

The Bible tells us that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Meaning that God never takes one's gifts or calling away. What do we do when faced with a man/woman who has fallen, is repentant, and who is indeed gifted and called of God? Do we override God's calling... or do we set standards for full reconciliation?

I like the idea of having the fallen individual "sit down" from any position for a set time, for example a year. During that time he should focus on rededication, re-consecration, healing, and the healing of his/her family. Should the outcome of this process be a positive one, the man should be incrementally restored to ministry over a years time. Allow him to open a few meetings. Then allow him to share the Word in a few meetings. Guage the way the body receives him. If he's received eventually allow him restored to an official position such as an associate pastor. Then hold a vote. If the body restores him fully, the body has spoken. If not. Allow him to remain an associate pastor and appoint an official senior pastor. Should another church vote the associate pastor in as their official pastor... that is that body's choice. Their body has spoken.

I don't believe one's restoration should be an arbitrary process based on the personal "feelings" of any one man. I believe a system of restoration should be in place to allow the fallen one to be restored to "ministry". Allow the body itself at that point choose to appoint "office".

Thoughts?