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  #41  
Old 08-22-2012, 11:52 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Oneness Doctrine:Who Is Jesus Father?

The Father is the father of the man Jesus Christ. However, the Christ is not only a man (the Son)... He is also the Father. Because the Father is a subsistent reality within Him. Jesus is both man... and God.
John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

Last edited by Aquila; 08-22-2012 at 11:55 AM.
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  #42  
Old 08-22-2012, 12:07 PM
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Re: Oneness Doctrine:Who Is Jesus Father?

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Originally Posted by Baron1710 View Post
Except when we are separate.
Of course.
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  #43  
Old 08-22-2012, 01:09 PM
bbyrd009 bbyrd009 is offline
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Re: Oneness Doctrine:Who Is Jesus Father?

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  #44  
Old 08-22-2012, 01:21 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Oneness Doctrine:Who Is Jesus Father?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
The Father is the father of the man Jesus Christ. However, the Christ is not only a man (the Son)... He is also the Father. Because the Father is a subsistent reality within Him. Jesus is both man... and God.
John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)
amen
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  #45  
Old 08-23-2012, 07:24 PM
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Re: Oneness Doctrine:Who Is Jesus Father?

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Originally Posted by Baron1710 View Post
It helps one to understand "I and my Father are one"...not one in number but one in purpose.
So when we call Jesus the Son as it says in Isaiah 9:6 and turn around and call him the Eternal Father as it says in the same verse are we talking to two persons or one person?
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  #46  
Old 08-23-2012, 07:32 PM
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Re: Oneness Doctrine:Who Is Jesus Father?

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Originally Posted by Baron1710 View Post
Jesus, while he was on earth, was not omnipresent, or omniscient, etc.

See Philippians 2; Mat. 24:36; John 5:30-32
In his humanity thats true. But in his deity Jesus was still in Heaven while he was on the Earth!

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:3

Thats my God. Tho he was standing on Earth talking to Nicodemus he was alive in Heaven at the same time. Watching over, loving, fellowshipping and leading the human Jesus.

Begotten Son-Eternal Father. The true Christ.
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  #47  
Old 08-23-2012, 09:21 PM
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Re: Oneness Doctrine:Who Is Jesus Father?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 View Post
It helps one to understand "I and my Father are one"...not one in number but one in purpose.
This is where we part ways, I think. I would say they (the father and the son Jesus) are absolutely the one and the same God, and singular in number. It's just that the Son has the the added component of true humanity, while the Father is the continued existence of God beyond the incarnation.

It's a mistake to say the Father is the Son Jesus, or the Son is the Father... one can say Son is God incarnate while the Father is not.
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  #48  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:18 PM
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Re: Oneness Doctrine:Who Is Jesus Father?

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Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
This is where we part ways, I think. I would say they (the father and the son Jesus) are absolutely the one and the same God, and singular in number. It's just that the Son has the the added component of true humanity, while the Father is the continued existence of God beyond the incarnation.

It's a mistake to say the Father is the Son Jesus, or the Son is the Father... one can say Son is God incarnate while the Father is not.
The first issue is what was Jesus saying, was he saying one in number or one in purpose. One can hold that the context of this passage means one in purpose yet still affirm God is one.
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  #49  
Old 08-24-2012, 01:31 AM
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Re: Oneness Doctrine:Who Is Jesus Father?

He could also be saying One union ontologically

Trinitarians seem to understand that significance while holding to the Trinity

NET bible commentarty
The phrase ἕν ἐσμεν ({en esmen) is a significant assertion with trinitarian implications. ἕν is neuter, not masculine, so the assertion is not that Jesus and the Father are one person, but one 'thing.' Identity of the two persons is not what is asserted, but essential unity (unity of essence).

Vincent's Word Studies
The neuter, not the masculine εἶς, one person. It implies unity of essence, not merely of will or of power.

From Onenesspentecostal.com

Question:
When Jesus said I and my Father are one you have said that this does not mean one in purpose, but one in essence. According to the Greek word "one" this is correct, but what about when Jesus prayed to the Father and said let them be one as we are one (John 17:11). How do you explain what Jesus is saying? Is he saying that we are to be one in essence as He and the Father are one in essence?

Answer:
Jesus did pray that those who believed in Him would be one, even as He and the Father were one (John 17:11). The word translated one is the Greek neuter hen, which occurs as the predicate nominative to eimi, meaning "to be." In the neuter, when hen does not modify a noun, the meaning is one "thing," not one person. Jesus was not saying that He was one in person with the Father, but one in unity. Even the context displays that this was His meaning. Jesus not only said that He and His Father were one, but also prayed that the church would be one in the same manner as He and the Father were (again implying a distinction). It is impossible for the church to be one in any other way than a unified sense of one. We are one when we have the mind of Christ.
Let it also be remembered that Jesus is praying. God has no need of prayer, but men do. Jesus was praying because He was a man, albeit God manifest in flesh. He was unified with the mind of the Father. Jesus plainly declared that He always did that which pleased His Father, and that He only did that which the Father was doing, and said what the Father told Him to say(John 8:29; 5:19; 8:26). Jesus even said His will was in unity with the Father's (Luke 22:42; John 4:34; 5:30). The fact that Jesus said He was in unity with the Father does not belittle or differentiate Christ's deity from the Father's, but demonstrates the genuineness of Jesus' humanity.
Gramatically and contextually, then, the meaning is clear that Jesus meant a unity of mind and purpose, not essence. This does not preclude John 10:30 from meaning essence, however. In that passage, the grammar and context indicate that that is the meaning. John 17:11 could be taken to indicate that Jesus is no more God than we are, if we only had this verse to examine. John 10:30, however, clearly declares Jesus to be God. So are these two verses opposed to one another? No. All this indicates is that words and meaning are determined by grammar and context. We need not approach the Scripture with a mentality that says the Scripture has to say everything in one passage. Different passages cannot contradict, but it can give different perspectives in different places, even using the same words to do so. What we see here with John 10:30 and 17:11 is what we see throughout the NT--Jesus is portrayed as being both God and man. Sometimes one aspect of His person is emphasized, and sometimes the other is emphasized. This is not contradictory, but complimentary.
http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/onewithjesus.htm


The best testimony we can get concerning Jesus' identity is His own. What did Jesus think about Himself? How did Jesus view His relationship to the Father? Jesus made some statements that overtly and boldly declared His deity. For example, one time he said, "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). He did not mean that He was one in purpose with the Father as some scholars suggest, but that He was of the same essence as the Father (deity). The Jews' response to Jesus' statement allows us to see the force of what He said. They took up stones to stone Him (v. 31). Their reasoning was that Jesus, who was a man, had made Himself God (v. 33). This was blasphemy to the Jews and was deserving of the death penalty. They understood perfectly that Jesus was claiming to be the Father Himself. If Jesus was not declaring equality with the Father, it would have been the perfect opportunity to explain what He really meant. Instead He continued to back up His claim (vs. 34-38).
http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/christology.htm


When speaking to the Pharisees, Jesus said that He gives His sheep eternal life, and no man could pluck the sheep out of His hand (John 10:28). Then Jesus said that His Father gave them to Him, and no one was able to pluck them out of His Father's hand (v. 29). Jesus had just claimed that the same sheep were in the Father's hand, and in His own. Jesus, knowing the apparent contradiction of this statement, confirmed the Jews' suppositions of the import of His statement, and immediately claimed that He and His Father were one (John 10:30). Immediately the Jews took up stones to stone Him (v. 31). When Jesus asked them for what good work they desired to kill Him, they responded, "For a good work we stone you not; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God" (v. 33). They understood that by Jesus claiming to have the Father's sheep in His hand, He was claiming to be God. The Jews did not understand Jesus' reference to God as His "Father" to mean that Jesus was less than God, or some sort of a second-rate god. Rather they understood His claim to be that of Yahweh God Himself. Their reasoning was that Jesus, who was a man, had made Himself God (v.. 33). This was blasphemy to the Jews and was deserving of the death penalty. They understood perfectly what Jesus was claiming. If Jesus was not declaring equality with the Father, it would have been the perfect opportunity to explain what He really meant. Instead He continued to back up His claim (vs. 34-38).
http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/trinoneness.htm
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #50  
Old 08-24-2012, 06:38 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Oneness Doctrine:Who Is Jesus Father?

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They understood that by Jesus claiming to have the Father's sheep in His hand, He was claiming to be God
Amen!

Isaiah 43:12-13

12 I have declared , and have saved , and I have shewed , when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. 13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work , and who shall let it?
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