NOW, When Is Someone Saved?

Dedicated Mind · #1 10-23-2010, 03:31 PM

NOW, let's get away from DA's belief since he is not here to defend himself. When do YOU believe someone is saved? If 3 stepper's disagree with you, are they teaching false doctrine?

Jeffrey · #2 10-23-2010, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

NOW, let's get away from DA's belief since he is not here to defend himself. When do YOU believe someone is saved? If 3 stepper's disagree with you, are they teaching false doctrine?

If ANYONE cheapens God's grace by creating formula and systematic steps, adding that one can only merit God's grace and saving power if they do XYZ, they are mangling the entire Story of God.

This is, in fact, false doctrine. Inside churches where this is taught, there are still many people who profess Jesus as LORD, manifest their belief by a life lived in Christ, etc... But I worry for those who promote this heresy of steps. It ends up playing out in almost every area of their theology (not just their soteriology).

But this is a nice deflection. You are adding-to salvation -- we would say someone is saved without your add-ons, providing they come to Christ believing that He alone saves them. The reverse is not true from your perspective to those who preach faith alone. Or is it?

MissBrattified · #3 10-23-2010, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

If ANYONE cheapens God's grace by creating formula and systematic steps, adding that one can only merit God's grace and saving power if they do XYZ, they are mangling the entire Story of God.

This is, in fact, false doctrine.

So do you believe anyone who teaches 2, 3 or more steps to salvation is going to hell?

Dedicated Mind · #4 10-23-2010, 03:43 PM

Jeffery, So you believe that someone who teaches that one is not saved until water and spirit baptism is teaching heresy? How does water and spirit baptism take away from the grace of God?

Jeffrey · #5 10-23-2010, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

So do you believe anyone who teaches 2, 3 or more steps to salvation is going to hell?

I believe, like those who Paul challenged, they've not only added steps, but redesigned the whole story of Grace. Whether they perish or not, they are nevertheless in heresy.

In the middle of this theology, there are most certainly pockets of grace-less works substituting themselves as God's work, and most certainly will be judged by God.

I teach "other steps" but that's I don't redefine grace and say those things will save you. They are taught as ordinances of the Church, and as a byproduct of a life lived out in grace.

I have sincerely questioned lately, since I was a step-preacher at one point (pun intended), how God will judge those. Paul was quite vocal. The NT was quite vicious toward false teachers. So... what is our response?

Jeffrey · #6 10-23-2010, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

Jeffery, So you believe that someone who teaches that one is not saved until water and spirit baptism is teaching heresy? How does water and spirit baptism take away from the grace of God?

It redefines grace as something we have to accomplish, rather than a gift given. God found Abraham. He found Noah. He chose David. He found Paul/Saul. Grace comes and explodes into our life. It's all God's work. No one even confesses Jesus as Lord except by the Spirit. He did the work. He saved us. I believe the Gospel of John alone is a testament to this work in our hearts.

To honestly answer your question, yes I do believe it's heresy (that is, adding to the Gospel).

How will it be eternally judged? I'm not sure, DM.

MissBrattified · #7 10-23-2010, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I believe, like those who Paul challenged, they've not only added steps, but redesigned the whole story of Grace. Whether they perish or not, they are nevertheless in heresy.

In the middle of this theology, there are most certainly pockets of grace-less works substituting themselves as God's work, and most certainly will be judged by God.

I teach "other steps" but that's I don't redefine grace and say those things will save you. They are taught as ordinances of the Church, and as a byproduct of a life lived out in grace.

I have sincerely questioned lately, since I was a step-preacher at one point (pun intended), how God will judge those. Paul was quite vocal. The NT was quite vicious toward false teachers. So... what is our response?

You tell me; what is your response? Are heretics going to be saved?

Jeffrey · #8 10-23-2010, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

You tell me; what is your response? Are heretics going to be saved?

It depends what the heresy is. If it's heresy against the Gospel, I can't say for certain, but it's not good ground to be on. But most of us got where we are by tradition of false teaching, so there are unique aspects to all of this.

What is your opinion about false teachers, MB, as it relates to scripture?

Jeffrey · #9 10-23-2010, 03:51 PM

I will just tell you this: when I saw it. When I saw God's grace for the first time (it was after 3 decades in the Church, mind you), the first thing I did was weep and wonder if I was even saved before. Granted, that was only an expression of my emotions, but it's how deep and life-changing that moment was.

I don't say this mean-spirited at all. I just really worry about people that put commands in front of Grace -- PARTICULARLY, demanding that people speak in tongues to be saved.

Dedicated Mind · #10 10-23-2010, 04:03 PM

Jeffery water and spirit baptism are acts of Grace. People are water baptized and God remits sin. Water baptism is a bible command like circumcision was for the old covenant. Spirit baptism is an act of Grace when God fills with his spirit. Where do you see commands of men adding to the work of grace by God?