The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Apprehended]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

You are being disingenuous, argumentative for the sake of argument, or both.

I'm perplexed by that charge. Surely, you must have some reason to think that. The truth is, I have been neither argumentative with you or disingenuous.

The preaching of the cross is that because He died, we can live.

I can't find that scripture in my bible anywhere. However, it is true that he died. It is also true that we can live. But, there must be some connection between, cross, died, and live. You didn't make that connection here. Would you please explain a little further?

We don't add our faith. We just respond to the Story, and can even only do that by his help (the Spirit). When someone says "the cross is enough" they are saying "his sacrifice is enough."

Please tell that "someone" that they need to read their bible since they do not know it too well.

Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

First: "Them" heard the gospel preached.

Secondly: It did not profit "them."

Thirdly: Faith was not mixed in "them."

Conclusion from this scripture in Hebrews: Both unto US and "them" heard the gospel preached. "Us," mixed our faith with the preached gospel which included the story of the cross. "Them" were not profited by the preaching of the cross not having MIXED their faith with the power to save.

To argue out semantics of how exhaustive the Gospel story is misses the point of what is meant. Fact is, we can go deeper into those semantics and theology of the cross if you'd like. But that's not really the point here. What was done on the cross satisfies our guilt and condemnation.

I disagree.

Actually, I don't care too much for semantics. However, I would like to stay with the Word of God.

When you say that the cross satisfies our guilt and condemnation, surely you can't mean that one who continues living like the devil is free from guilt and condemnation? However, I am aware that there are some that believe that continuing on in sin while claiming the cross and the blood of Jesus as their justification. This concept is nothing less than profaning the Word of God and counting the blood of Jesus as worthless, treading it under foot. No sir, the cross alone neither satisfies our guilt and condemnation. Neither is there a substitute for the cross to cleanse sin in those who come to it, receiving its message of Death, Burial and Resurrection, who mixes their faith with its power to save.

Nothing else does, and anything else intended to satisfy that guilt is foolishness and mockery of His suffering -- not to mention something bringing the affectionate analogy of a menstrual cloth.

No one has ever suggested that there is anything that can substitute the power of the cross to cleanse sin. However, any casual reader of the bible quickly understands that without the cooperation of the will of man, the cross is worthless on his behalf.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

You are being disingenuous, argumentative for the sake of argument, or both.

The preaching of the cross is that because He died, we can live.

We don't add our faith. We just respond to the Story, and can even only do that by his help (the Spirit). When someone says "the cross is enough" they are saying "his sacrifice is enough."

To argue out semantics of how exhaustive the Gospel story is misses the point of what is meant. Fact is, we can go deeper into those semantics and theology of the cross if you'd like. But that's not really the point here. What was done on the cross satisfies our guilt and condemnation. Nothing else does, and anything else intended to satisfy that guilt is foolishness and mockery of His suffering -- not to mention something bringing the affectionate analogy of a menstrual cloth.

Are you a universalist?

We all believe that his sacrifice is enough to bring remittance of sin and righteousness. I don't think anyone disputes that fact.

[Jeffrey]

When I say the cross satisfies our guilt and condemnation, that's exactly what I mean.

'Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.' 1

Now, this hardly means that it is impossible to say anything about Jesus’ death on the cross – that would clearly contradict the testimony of both Old and New Testaments. But it does suggest that we should learn to be content with the fact that Jesus’ death will never fit neatly into our theological categories or grids. As a result, we should never be surprised by the academic incredulity, if not scorn, which a biblical understanding of the cross inevitably generates.

For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. The cross was a ransom paid.

Paul in Romans 8:18-21 and Colossians 1:19-20 gives no space for western individualism for this is a cosmic victory of reconciliation.

A cross-rescued human being has now undergone a Cosmic revolution, so that he or she is no longer the centre of the universe; the rescuing God is. Living for God is the life that we have been saved to live; and it is the best way to live. It is a life of confidence and freedom from fear, because it is based on our divine acceptance and adoption, our eternal belonging. Above all, it is a life made possible by Jesus death and his subsequent sending of his Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13-17).

The preaching of the cross is one sense, the entirety of the story (symbolized by the atoning sacrifice), as well as the pause and reality of his death. It's the culmination of a God coming to our rescue.

And I would add, that even on your willful behalf, you cannot believe. No one confesses Jesus as Lord, except by the Spirit. The Story speaks to us, Grace elects us, we simply accept that as truth, allow the generation of Grace, believe it at a heart level --- it's world and life-changing. A person who has been freed from such great debt in life is the most gracious of all. A person that feels God's Story plus their own works (and then continual work to keep themselves saved) is not the most gracious, for they never understood grace to begin with. He saved me, and nothing can separate me from His love (Romans 8). It is not my obligation to believe, it's His work in me that I can believe.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Are you a universalist?

We all believe that his sacrifice is enough to bring remittance of sin and righteousness. I don't think anyone disputes that fact.

If you've read this entire thread and come away that I'm a universalist, then you've greatly misunderstood me.

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by MrMasterMind

His death paid for my sin, without His resurrection there would be no new birth.

That is true, may I also add that a pardon is of none effect until accepted.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

That is true, may I also add that a pardon is of none effect until accepted.

Exactly! It's in the "acceptance" that we find disagreement except for universalists who don't believe acceptance is required.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

And I would add, that even on your willful behalf, you cannot believe. No one confesses Jesus as Lord, except by the Spirit. The Story speaks to us, Grace elects us, we simply accept that as truth, allow the generation of Grace, believe it at a heart level --- it's world and life-changing. A person who has been freed from such great debt in life is the most gracious of all. A person that feels God's Story plus their own works (and then continual work to keep themselves saved) is not the most gracious, for they never understood grace to begin with. He saved me, and nothing can separate me from His love (Romans 8). It is not my obligation to believe, it's His work in me that I can believe.

So are you saying that God forces us to believe in Christ whether we want to or not and once God makes us take his gift of salvation there is absolutely not way to give the gift back?

All those verses that tell us to do this or that (pray, keep, walk, live, crucify, deny...etc) are given for what reason if we don't have to keep those commands?

Reformed theology is wacky!

[James Griffin]

They simply confuse foreknowledge with predestination

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

They simply confuse foreknowledge with predestination

That is IT in a nutshell!

[Apprehended]

A question for the "cross alone" crowd:

Who then can be saved?

In the 1970s, a sister to then President Jimmy Carter, witnessed to the publisher of one of the most vile magazines ever published filled with the raunchiest pornography that ever sold. If I remember correctly, his name was Larry Flynn or Larry Flint or something like that.

This publishing tycoon of the worlds worst filth accepted the witness of this lady. She prayed the sinner's prayer with him. Both she and Larry testified that he had been born again, accepting the atonement provided on the cross. I remember reading these statements very clearly.

Throughout the remainder of his life, he claimed to be saved and born again. I fully expected his to give up his most wicked life-style. I expected that there would be no further editions of Hustler magazine. I further expected that there would be a change in his life as I recognize that there are people who turn to God in repentance even without receiving the Holy Ghost.

Not one edition failed. He continued on with his evil, debauchery, and wickedness as though he had never confessed Christ or made him Lord. He never gave up his corrupting the lives and minds of his readers. His statements in the newspapers at the time reflected the same old man as full of sin as always. There was no change in his life at all.

Would it not be reasonable to expect that someone who claimed to be saved to give up sin? Is it not reasonable to conclude that if someone had truly mixed their faith with the preached message of the (gospel) cross that they would repent from sin and live a new life being made a new creature in Christ? Is that rationale too far out to think possible?

The truth is:

1. A constructed cross of wood is not enough.

2. Jesus dying on it as a sin sacrifice paying the ransom is not enough.

3. The dead body of Jesus laid in the tomb is not enough.

4. Jesus resurrecting from the dead to overcome death and hell, is not enough.

5. Preaching the gospel is not enough.

6. All of the above, mixed with faith and obedience is sufficient. Anything less is not enough.

Had Larry Flynn believed the correct doctrine of the Apostolic Church founded on the day of Pentecost, carrying forward the message of Jesus after his resurrection that "repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name beginning at Jerusalem," to the heralding Apostles whose message never wavered, it is possible for Larry Flint to have been saved.

There is no wonder that Jesus said the gate is strait and the way is narrow and few there be that find it. The enemy of our souls wishes to convolute the doctrine of Christ to favor our foolish imaginations to our own peril.

The message to the Jews (who sought for signs) preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost is the same message to the Greeks (who sought wisdom) preached by Paul. There was no difference at all...both to the Jew and the Greek.

Larry Flynn might would have fully repented of his sin had he been preached the full message of the cross without alloy. Who can say for sure? If today he is dead, he could have been with Murrell Ewing, J.T. Pugh, Cleve Becton, Tom Barnes, Nathan and Jean Urshan and with Jesus too. But, he is not. The enemy came in and sowed tares, polluting the gospel and corrupting the message of the cross to Larry Flynn's eternal loss.

I fully believe, according to the words of Jesus, that they are both where the soul is bannished from the presence of God forever.

If the scriptures say that the Holy Ghost is given to them that Obey him...and it does. Then, I need to obey. Why? Because the same bible says that without the Holy Ghost (the Spirit of Christ) we are none of his. It is not hard to put two and two together. The same message that Peter preached to the Jews and Paul preached to the gentiles is the same message that rings loudly, clearly, forcefully today without any room for doubt.

Let us be wary of the message that would dilute, pollute or divert the gospels' clarion call to faith, repentance and obedience. If you call this adding to the cross, I would disagree, for without the whole operation of the cross of Jesus, all else lost to confusion and unstable minds.