Christian Perspectives Concerning the Law

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Amen!!! I personally like to say:
Pay tithes in the OT
Give tithes in the NT

Well, I'd go beyond that and say GIVE (not pay tithes because the entire system for tithing is nowhere near similar to what was expected in scripture). And I don't give to be blessed. I give because that's a summary of much of my life. He gave so generously, when I was so undeserving, so I give to others generously. It's a way of worship that mirrors the cross. It all goes back to the Gospel

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Well, I'd go beyond that and say GIVE (not pay tithes because the entire system for tithing is nowhere near similar to what was expected in scripture). And I don't give to be blessed. I give because that's a summary of much of my life. He gave so generously, when I was so undeserving, so I give to others generously. It's a way of worship that mirrors the cross. It all goes back to the Gospel

Yes, I agree it's all about giving. I was just trying to point that "pay" makes it legalistic while "give" makes it out of love.

Luke 6:30Give to every man that asketh of thee...

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by Cindy

The 10 Commandments were for the Nation of Israel. Was this the first covenant?

No, the first covenant was made with Adam in the garden of Eden. We are now living in the seventh covenant, the number of completion. There remains one more, the eighth covenant. This is the covenant of a new beginning which will be established at the marriage supper of the Lamb of God.

In general, the several covenants God has made with man fall into the following categories:

1. The Adamic Covenant (Garden, Pre Fall)

2. Edenic (Post Fall)

3. Noah Covenant (Post Flood)

4. Abraham’s (Patriarchal) Covenant

5. Mosaic Covenant , also referred to as the Mt. Sinai or Wilderness Covenant.

6. Davidic Covenant

7. First Messianic Covenant (or the Covenant of Completion). The current Covenant.

8. Marriage Supper of the Lamb Covenant (Second Messianic & Post Judgment Covenant, aka, The Covenant of New Beginnings)

One might also discover that, implied throughout the Bible, every instruction in righteous living (Torah, Law) from an earlier covenant is continued on into the next covenant (in some form or another, i.e., frequently modified by expansion), but not necessarily 'listed individually' in each successive covenant requirements.

For example, see Genesis 4:1-16, recalling that there are two definitions of sin. First, anything not done in faith is a sin (Romans 14:23) and Second, any transgression of the 'Law' is a sin (1 John 3:4). God did not allow the passing of Cain's death to go without judgment. Further, as noted in Romans 5:13, apart from the 'law', sin is not imputed to man. Therefore, the 'law' or commandment not to murder was already in effect (understood as existing) in order for God to make a judgment.

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Concerning the multitude of questions and responses: Perhaps dividing up the initial list of questions into separate threads. Or, a published requirement to address only one question at a time, with Ivy being the decision maker as to when it is time to move on to the next question (he is satisfied with the responses he has received). Perhaps even to reordering the questions, also see Post # 10.

[Socialite]

HaShal, are you a Dispensationalist?

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by Socialite

HaShal, are you a Dispensationalist?

If by that question, am I a Calvinist? No. However, I do recognize the successive covenants between God and man, according to the failure of each. As each covenant was broken by man, God offered a ‘new’ covenant based on new and expanded requirements.

With the advent of the current covenant (the seventh), we are essentially back to the first covenant (Mark 12:30-32). One might also include Ephesians 5:25-30, the instructions in righteous living (Torah, Commandments, Law) being understood as explained by Jesus in Matthew chapters 5-7.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

If by that question, am I a Calvinist? No. However, I do recognize the successive covenants between God and man, according to the failure of each. As each covenant was broken by man, God offered a ‘new’ covenant based on new and expanded requirements.

With the advent of the current covenant (the seventh), we are essentially back to the first covenant (Mark 12:30-32). One might also include Ephesians 5:25-30, the instructions in righteous living (Torah, Commandments, Law) being understood as explained by Jesus in Matthew chapters 5-7.

I don't believe even the old Dispensationalists like Scofield were Calvinists exclusively, were they? Maybe I'm misinformed. But Dispensationalism has a broad audience.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

No, the first covenant was made with Adam in the garden of Eden. We are now living in the seventh covenant, the number of completion. There remains one more, the eighth covenant. This is the covenant of a new beginning which will be established at the marriage supper of the Lamb of God.

In general, the several covenants God has made with man fall into the following categories:

1. The Adamic Covenant (Garden, Pre Fall)

2. Edenic (Post Fall)

3. Noah Covenant (Post Flood)

4. Abraham’s (Patriarchal) Covenant

5. Mosaic Covenant , also referred to as the Mt. Sinai or Wilderness Covenant.

6. Davidic Covenant

7. First Messianic Covenant (or the Covenant of Completion). The current Covenant.

8. Marriage Supper of the Lamb Covenant (Second Messianic & Post Judgment Covenant, aka, The Covenant of New Beginnings)

One might also discover that, implied throughout the Bible, every instruction in righteous living (Torah, Law) from an earlier covenant is continued on into the next covenant (in some form or another, i.e., frequently modified by expansion), but not necessarily 'listed individually' in each successive covenant requirements.

For example, see Genesis 4:1-16, recalling that there are two definitions of sin. First, anything not done in faith is a sin (Romans 14:23) and Second, any transgression of the 'Law' is a sin (1 John 3:4). God did not allow the passing of Cain's death to go without judgment. Further, as noted in Romans 5:13, apart from the 'law', sin is not imputed to man. Therefore, the 'law' or commandment not to murder was already in effect (understood as existing) in order for God to make a judgment.

------------------------

Concerning the multitude of questions and responses: Perhaps dividing up the initial list of questions into separate threads. Or, a published requirement to address only one question at a time, with Ivy being the decision maker as to when it is time to move on to the next question (he is satisfied with the responses he has received). Perhaps even to reordering the questions, also see Post # 10.

Okay right, sin - law, or law - sin? First covenant between God and man was with Adam, after he sinned?

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by Cindy

Okay right, sin - law, or law - sin? First covenant between God and man was with Adam, after he sinned?

Before he sinned.

Adam was given everything in the world to have dominion over. It is implied that God and Adam spent 'quality time' together. Yet, even with Adam there was one 'stated' condition that Adam had to met, i.e., a negative commandment, not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil).

Also, in return for the entire world and everything on it, Adam was assigned a number of tasks, name the creatures, tend and dress the garden, etc. Additional covenant requirements. He also had unrestricted access to the tree of life.

After the fall, the second covenant (Edenic (Post Fall) kicks in with additional requirements for a righteous life. But, again, not everything is listed in an open text. When Moses wrote these first five books, not everything was recorded - and not necessary for everything to be listed in Genesis account because a more detailed list of commands were to be written (and expended) within the Mt. Sinai Covenant.

Also in the Genesis account we will find the third covenant, the one made with Noah (there was a pre-flood and a post flood continuation part to this covenant). The thing to notice and to keep in mind is there is an explicit understanding that the laws of God, while not written down by Moses in his books, they were never-the-less known to men. Consider the father of the faith, Abraham. It is quite instructional to meditate on Genesis 26:1-6. Then address the questions: What was the ''charge' of God that Abraham kept? What were where the commandments, laws, and statutes of God that Abraham also kept?

Then, in studying the various covenants, one will not find a single reference to a previous covenant requirement being 'removed' from a subsequent covenant. Expanded, refocused, more defined, etc. - yes, but not deleted!

One of the interesting aspects of the Bible is the promise that with the advent of our fact to face meeting with God is that a full knowledge of Him will be revealed to us (or, as much as we will be able to grasp). See 1 Corinthians 13:12. Perhaps this is the final stage of knowledge that was also in the beginning between Adam and God - before the knowledge of evil entered into the picture. I don't know!

The two things that are revealed from Genesis to Revelation is that God has always provided and always required. He has always provided grace, even in the garden, and He always requires faith.

The entire story of creation and the history of mankind (entire word of God) is simply an expression of God's love and compassion for His creation, mankind. And, we also find in those pages that those who love God also place their full trust and confidence (faith) in Him - and they obey God out of their love of Him - and He walks with them in the cool of the evening.

[NotforSale]

I find this discussion more than interesting. The folding and unfolding of specific Laws within a Religion mystifies me. This evolution of “What went yesterday, doesn’t go today” is the major conflict within ALL Faiths and Spirituality. This seems to contradict the Validity and Laws of Creation, as what God created in the beginning via our networks and societies of Nature, they are still the same today since their inception. Yet, from the inception of Man, the colossal formalities of Faith change daily.

I think it is eccentric that as time has passed, the increased demands in Faith has only destroyed the confidence in people through justifying today’s actions by stating that what we did a long time ago is now Null and Void. People are the victims in this forever changing landscape in Religion, which only leads to further opinions and questions. This melting pot of ideas has not only complicated Faith, it has perplexed the Human Race as to what is RIGHT and WRONG.

Please forgive me, but standing back and looking at this is very troubling and comical. The institutions that are in charge of giving us “God” fall into this trap, every time! What goes now will eventually be done away with by further explanations that don’t really take us anywhere. I’ve noticed on AFF and other Debate Forums, that people are sincerely confused about Faith, and it seems to come down to this subject; what is expected of me, according to Law, Ritual, or Act? The answers are ENDLESS, not because of God, but because of Man and his unfulfilled quest in nailing down what to believe and do for the One who created us.

It appears to me, if God intended for us to follow the infinite Laws etched by the Religious orders of yesterday, today, and the future, don’t you think the Master of the Universe would have given the first Man a BOOK?

[houston]

*places nfs on ignore* EVERY TIME I SEE HIS/HER HANDLE, REMINDS ME OF THE TIME I WAS TRIPPIN ON A HOLE IN A PAPER HEART