Christian Perspectives Concerning the Law

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

HaShaliach, I have a lot of respect for you and your openness for debate. I feel I can be honest with my feelings and opinions, and that you will consider my approach to Faith and Religion. That's all I ask from people; just consider. You don't have to agree, but at least think about it.

I wish I could agree about the simplicity in Jesus Christ, but it's not that simple. For example, the same Jesus that extended mercy to the lowest of the lows on his earthly mission, will someday sit on a Throne, casting all of humanities unworthy subjects into the torment of eternal fire. This doesn't make any sense.

Look at the Talmud. How do we look at this? How does this fit in Faith and our mission as Christians? Unveiling this "Document" can unnerve the best at heart in regards to Christianity and the Jews.

The Bible itself is full of discrepancy, opinion, and doctrines that cannot be proven (the afterlife being one); this alone leaves people to ponder in speculation and doubt. Why in the world would God leave human beings, who can’t even pay their bills, with the responsibility of dishing out Eternal Damnation to people who struggle to understand or don’t agree with a particular Religious ideal?

Even you had posted that if Jesus is the Truth, and we must follow this Truth, we would need another Book as large as the Bible to explain the Truth about Jesus, and that very few people can describe this Truth.

Thank you – you do me honor beyond my station.

Yet, in truth, I do understand your position as you have described it, I have been there myself. The difficulties we all face are multifaceted.

Our biggest problem rests in our world view, our manner and mode of thinking and relating to our physical environment. Our heritage consists of Greek and Roman thinking patterns. Which defines us as time dependent (linear), abstract thinkers in a noun based (object) language of expression. The writers and intended readers of the scriptures view the world from a time independent (spiral precept), concrete thinkers in a verb (action) based language. This makes understanding and identifying the correct application of scripture difficult. NOT impossible – just difficult. Much of our contemporary problems with scripture start with the simple ignorance of the scriptural languages by our teachers. The Greek language we can handle better than Hebrew because it is the language of Aristotle, the foundation of our own thinking patterns. But it still holds problems for us because the NT Greek was used to express Hebrew thoughts. The bottom line is that for the most part, our teachers simply do not understand what it is they profess to teach and the rest of us pay the price. 1Timothy 1:3-10

One of the fundamental principles is that the gospel is so simple that even those who have a diminished intellectual capacity can grasp the precepts of scriptures (e.g., simple right/wrong concepts, a God exists, etc). The other aspect is that the scriptures can become just as complex as any individual wishes to make them. Like the God they reveal, the depth is unsearchable. Scripture only opens the door to the infinite – they do not attempt to explain it.

One of my favorite sayings is, “God is. Jesus is His Messiah (the anointed one) because none of the rest of us measure up. Everything else is commentary, so go study.”

I realize how disconcerting and even frustrating the word of truth can be. I have not come even close to mastering it! That is why I have been reduced to making my own translations, so that I can attempt to paint the Hebraic language pictures, with their included sounds, sight, taste, touch and smell (verb/action/picture) attributes. After well over 40 years of study, in 2008 I finally took upon myself the title of ‘Serious Student of the Word’. No laying on of hands, no prophecy, nothing – I did it all by myself and on my own authority. Yet, I found that there was a heavy price to pay for that title.

While your questions raise more issues than this already overburdened thread was created to address, there remains yet one additional point you raised that needs to be addressed: The question of judgments.

Yes, men shall be called upon to judge angels, and at least the Apostles, perhaps all saints, will be called upon to judge the nations. How can this be when we cannot even judge issues among ourselves? Again, this is a problem of changing our mind set from Western to Hebraic. 1 Corinthians 6:1-5. While we so frequently judge as men judge (flesh), and not as God judges, we will have that ability after our resurrection. This doctrine is based on the promise that we shall know God even as we are now known (by Him).

In the mean time, we are still commanded to come to Christ as little children – simple in our approach, in the understanding of our God, and in our acceptance of the grace that has been offered to us in exchange for our iniquity before a holy and righteous God. It has more to do with one's point of view and attitude, than mental effort.

There is value in the Talmuds, the Mishna, etc. but the study of these commentaries should be left to teachers and teachers in training who have been previously instructed in the Hebrew language and world view. Attempting to digest these kinds of works is something like a person who has mastered algebra attempting to study advanced mathematical functions, such as understanding the Fourier transform or the Laplace transform, which are used for solving some differential and integral equations. My recommendation to most students is this: Stay with the scriptures and generally accepted English commentaries. Then start studying the biblical languages, history, culture, and religion of the original scripture writers. After gaining a good understanding of these subjects, then one ‘may’ be ready to undertake a study of the rabbinical instructions and commentaries. But then, the question is, why bother?

I know this post was very insufficient. The questions you posed require more serious responses than what we have time or room for here. Like all of the law questions asked by Ivy, perhaps separate threads would be in order for your concerns.

---------------
Now, I need to go back and study what has been posted on the thread concerning 'The Law'.

[houston]

*overwhelmed*

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Because you're just a "stupidhead?" ... oh, wait! sorry.

[KeptByTheWord]

I've been following this discussion with great interest as Ivy carefully approached some issues about the Law that I've been dealing with also. I have enjoyed hearing both sides of the discussion. I am of the opinion, as is HaShaliach, that unless we completely devote ourselves to the Hebraic language and culture, much of the OT cannot be truly understood. Just a simple pass over the OT scriptures will not mean much at all until you begin to truly study. Then upon studying, you began to learn just how much you don't know, and it is quite overwhelming and humbling. The more I study Scripture, the more I realize that I truly don't know.

That being said, I like how Bro. Blume said this: Paul contrasted CURSE with BLESSING. Blessing cannot come upon those who adhere to Law, as they use self effort and will power to serve God. Law was never meant to take man on to righteousness. God knew it would not work with man. Law came to show us what sin was and to teach us a lesson that self effort, as the devil tempted the woman to live by, is futile.

The law was never meant to be completely done away with at all, but it was meant to be fulfilled in Jesus/Yeshua. Yet, fulfilling the Law's requirements, and demands was something man could NEVER attain. James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." Only Jesus, the PERFECT one could completely fulfill and live the Law the way it was written to be lived. Now through the blood of Jesus, with the law's demands having been fulfilled, we live in the law of liberty.

James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Does this give us a license to completely invalidate and do away with the whole law? NO. The law of liberty has changed the original law/Torah for us, from carnal dictates to spiritual life. From rules, laws, and restrictions upon man, who can never comply, to a spiritual law written on our heart that gives us the ability and power to overcome, and to love one another, with God's love doing the work that the law never could do.

The law could never teach the HEART to do what was right, but only was a teacher until the Holy Ghost was given to teach us now, and lead us and guide us into all truth.

John 16:13 "Howbeit, when he, the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you into all truth, for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that will he speak, and he will shew you things to come."

The law is no longer our teacher, having been fulfilled in Jesus. The Spirit of God or the COMFORTER was given to us to become our new teacher, to guide and lead us into all truth. The old law/Torah has been transformed into a new creation by the blood of Jesus, and with the work of the Holy Spirit, the old laws are to be transformed spiritually in our hearts, not with works of our own hands, and things that we can do physically, but the works of a heart transformed by the Spirit of God.

That is why Paul sought so diligently to try to explain to the early church people that the works of the law which involved all the ceremonial practices that for thousands of years had been a lifestyle for them, were no longer the requirements God needed for salvation. How do you go about changing a mindset of people who have been following Torah with all its dietary/lifestyle laws and restrictions for thousands of years, and then have them understand it is no longer necessary, because the blood of Jesus completely fulfilled those demands? That was Paul’s dilemma, I believe in spending so much time discussing the law in the NT.

To put this issue in perspective, I think of myself today. Having grown up all my life in a OP church, with all the holiness standards, and requirements, and now, having begun to read and study the Bible for myself, I have begun realizing that most of that stuff not even anywhere close to being in the Bible. I have the head knowledge now, that it is okay to cut my hair, because the word uncut is never mentioned in 1 Cor. 11. But do you know how absolutely difficult it is for that information to reach my heart and for my spirit not to be condemned to do such a thing? After all, it was my way of life for many decades!

I imagine that it was this way for the Jewish people who began to slowly realize that all their life they had been living, and preparing for Jesus to come each time they tried to follow Torah, but yet when he did come, and completely fulfill the things they were doing, it was a terribly scary thing to stop their ritualism and replace it with faith! That is why the Jews continued on with many of the ceremonial laws, because it was tradition. Tradition is hard to break!! Because we have lost understanding of why we do something, we just do it! So Paul was trying to instruct the early church on how the spirit was our new teacher, not the law. Yet, Paul met every single requirement of the Jewish Torah with the holidays, feasts, etc. and on the other hand, still went to the Gentiles, trying to teach both sides of the spectrum, “being all things to all men”. What a difficult position he was in! Never once do you read of Paul commanding the Gentiles to follow the old Torah. At least I can’t find it anywhere, but the Gentiles were given a few instructions, as laid out in Acts 15 to follow, which weren’t anywhere close to completely following Torah.

In fact, the book of Galatians was written to a group of people who had bought into the plan of salvation through Jesus, but upon beginning to live it out, some began to want to go back to the old ways of ritualism with the law being their teacher, instead of the Holy Spirit. Because it is easier to place restrictions on our flesh, than to allow the spirit to do its work!! Read here Paul’s famous words to the Galatians:

Galatians 3:1-3 1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

So when we begin to look at how the law was NOT done away with, but fulfilled in Jesus, and how the Spirit of God is our new teacher, not the law, we begin to see that anything done ceremonially will not harm us - it didn't harm Paul, who followed holidays/feast etc - as long as it did not replace the Spirit moving in our lives. I have no problem with those who feel they need to live out the demands of Torah, as long as they realize the Spirit of God must be the teacher in their lives and not Torah.

I have very close friends who do this. They tell me what a blessing, and refreshing time it is for them to celebrate Sabbath on Saturday, and to follow as closely as possible the laws Torah dictated. However, they do it in a spirit of love, and joy and also allow the Spirit of God to lead and guide them. I see nowhere in scripture that this could be wrong. I don’t see that we are commanded to do that, nor that it is essential for salvation, as long as we always keep in mind, that the flesh can NEVER accomplish what Jesus accomplished for us at Calvary. No great sacrifice of mine, or perfect following of Torah, will ever accomplish what Calvary did. If I, in love for God, want to live my life as closely as possible to following Torah, yet realizing that the Spirit of God is the only thing that will perfect me, than that is what I should do.

Myself, I do not see in scripture where the Gentile people were commanded by Paul or Peter or James to follow Torah in the literal, carnal sense, but, were told most importantly to allow the Spirit, the Comforter to change us through our faith in Jesus and the work done at Calvary, in allowing the principles of the Torah to become a literal way of our life, loving one another, as Jesus said was the greatest commandment of all, and really was what Torah was all about.

In summary, Torah really taught love, and flesh/man can never attain true love. Love for one another was the underlying force in Torah. Now, the Spirit brings love to us in a new dimension, perfected in Jesus. As we allow the spirit to transform our lives, that is the highest form of Torah/law that we can attain as humans. God’s love must be allowed to work in us, teach us and transform us, which is what Torah was trying to teach us from the beginning, because our human natural love does not have the ability to do what God’s love can do. Torah is now written on our hearts through the Spirit of God bringing life, instead of death.

I think I’ve just about written a book here and certainly didn’t intend to do that, but being on a spiritual journey myself seeking truth in light of the word of God, I’m hoping that others here will offer meaningful discussion and personal insight, and not personal attack about what I’ve written.

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I think I’ve just about written a book here and certainly didn’t intend to do that, but being on a spiritual journey myself seeking truth in light of the word of God, I’m hoping that others here will offer meaningful discussion and personal insight, and not personal attack about what I’ve written.

Please, continue to write your 'book'.

[Apprehended]

The Jews had the Torah, the Talmud with all it contained, the Mishnah and the Gemara together with the finest of schools to teach both the law and the Prophets. They were sticklers for each jot and tittle of the writing of their language. They gave great emphasis on each sound of the letter of the Word. Yet, they were spiritually as blind as bats after all their great linguistic education.

The point is, you can study the letter crunching on every nuance real or perceived, yet it will profit nothing in the spiritual sense. A little uneducated grandma prayer warrior will have more spiritual wisdom and divine understanding than the most exalted and esteemed Rabbi. There is a reason:

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The simple written Word of God, presented to our poor scholastically deficient minds together with the Holy Ghost within, unencumbered by vain teachings of traditions, will teach and enlightened those things written that they may be perfectly understood.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The simple written Word of God, presented to our poor scholastically deficient minds together with the Holy Ghost within, unencumbered by vain teachings of traditions, will teach and enlightened those things written that they may be perfectly understood.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple

Question: Looking at the [dis]unity of the body of Christ throughout the world, even within the OP movement - what went wrong?

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Question: Looking at the [dis]unity of the body of Christ throughout the world, even within the OP movement - what went wrong?

In spite of all the disunity, the dissimulation, envy and strife, nothing has gone wrong.

The body of Christ is not divided while recalling the words of the Apostle, "Is Christ divided?" His true body is standing tall, handsome and majestic in the earth, in total unity and harmony...every joint in its place performing each and every function assigned to it.

We must remember the words of Jesus concerning the Kingdom of God noting particularly that it comes not with observation:

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

The mystical body is just that. It is a spiritual body that cannot be identified wholly as one group or even a collection of groups in absolute harmony with each other. Jesus continues on:

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Thus, it is not a formal body as we think of such. It is the mystical body of one here, one there, a few over there, one or two elsewhere...some times totally unknown of each other...but yet, all are spiritually ONE in Christ, the King, comprising the Kingdom of God. Finally Jesus said:

Luk 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].

Anyone or any group that purports itself to the exclusive body of Christ are deceivers. Jesus said to not go after or follow them. Nevertheless, the body of Christ is one. Nothing has gone wrong...the Kingdom of God is predestined to be all that God intended for it to be from the beginning. Nothing will be lost. All that are his will come to Him and will be wholly united into the mystical body of Christ upon the earth which has the affect of populating the kingdom of God in heaven...daily.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

The Jews had the Torah, the Talmud with all it contained, the Mishnah and the Gemara together with the finest of schools to teach both the law and the Prophets. They were sticklers for each jot and tittle of the writing of their language. They gave great emphasis on each sound of the letter of the Word. Yet, they were spiritually as blind as bats after all their great linguistic education.

The point is, you can study the letter crunching on every nuance real or perceived, yet it will profit nothing in the spiritual sense. A little uneducated grandma prayer warrior will have more spiritual wisdom and divine understanding than the most exalted and esteemed Rabbi. There is a reason:

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The simple written Word of God, presented to our poor scholastically deficient minds together with the Holy Ghost within, unencumbered by vain teachings of traditions, will teach and enlightened those things written that they may be perfectly understood.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple

I both agree and disagree with you.

I agree that the spiritual nature of our relationship with God is irrelevant of our education. I disagree that those who study the scriptures, are educated and seek to know more about what was said will not profit anything.

I also disagree with the notion that the Bible is an easy document to read and understand. That has been foolishly told to people. The Bible is an ancient document, written in an ancient language to ancient people. The culture, time, thought philosophy, historical relevance (events hinted at in scriptures that we have to dig back to find out and relate) and even writing genres and styles all present a pretty difficult task for those seeking to "rightly handle the Word." Anyone who says it's easy is fooling themselves.

It may be easy to read the Bible at a base level, not inquire much, and just grab key points. Sure. The Bible, separate of intense study can even minister to us in a devotional way. But to get the real sense of scripture, understand what it originally meant before we can apply what it means today, to rightly interpret and read... that is no small task. And an education, combined with a person full of the Spirit is highly recommended.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

In spite of all the disunity, the dissimulation, envy and strife, nothing has gone wrong.

The body of Christ is not divided while recalling the words of the Apostle, "Is the body of Christ divided?" His true body is standing tall, handsome and majestic in the earth, in total unity and harmony...every joint in its place performing each and every function assigned to it.

We must remember the words of Jesus concerning the Kingdom of God noting particularly that it comes not with observation:

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

The mystical body is just that. It is a spiritual body that cannot be identified wholly as one group or even a collection of groups in absolute harmony with each other. Jesus continues on:

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Thus, it is not a formal body as we think of such. It is the mystical body of one here, one there, a few over there, one or two elsewhere...some times totally unknown of each other...but yet, all are spiritually ONE in Christ, the King, comprising the Kingdom of God. Finally Jesus said:

Luk 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].

Anyone or any group that purports itself to the exclusive body of Christ are deceivers. Jesus said to not go after or follow them. Nevertheless, the body of Christ is one. Nothing has gone wrong...the Kingdom of God is predestined to be all that God intended for it to be from the beginning. Nothing will be lost. All that are his will come to Him and will be wholly united into the mystical body of Christ upon the earth which has the affect of populating the kingdom of God in heaven...daily.

Your application of the KOG parables is exactly why I reasoned about the complexity of handling scripture in my prior post.

Yes, the KOG is one where we are born from above, it has transcendent reign, but to suggest that Jesus and Paul expected the Body of believers to be fragmented, bickering over non-issues and putting religious frames around such a beautiful art that is the Gospel... well, I can't agree that that's true. The KOG is within you, but it's also worked out best in community. Together. Unity. Paul talks of unity MUCH in his epistles. We don't have a picture of: let everyone splinter off, we are one Body anyway.