Baptism: Essential or Not

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Just a reminder to all -

The book of Acts is primarily a short-form history book, that also contains some theology and doctrinal statements. It is not all inclusive in either the history of the church, its major players, nor does it contain the complete teaching of Jesus Christ or that of all of His apostles and subsequent established prophets who brought additional revelation and instructions to the church. The book does not include the histories, ministries or doctrines of Peter, James and John, not to mention all of the other apostles, prophets, evangelists and teachers.

The epistles are rather skimpy on full doctrinal details, and generally contain responses to problems that have been transmitted to Paul from the different churches. Sometimes one cannot tell for certain which comments in the letters are quotes from the churches or Paul's own ideas. These differences are not always clear in classical Greek, as the language has no quotation marks in its grammatical structure - it just 'understood'. At any rate, unidentified quotes in a responding letter sent back to an originating church would be known and easily recognized by that church.

Consequently, we all need to be very careful about what is actually communicated in the NT scriptures. Over the centuries too many men have attempted to 'fill in the blanks' with their own good ideas of what God intended to communicate in these books. The result can be seen throughout the Christian world - division and contention, and when religious traditions clash, we even have our 2,000 year history of different groups killing those who profess a different belief in Jesus than the group currently in power.

On another thread I made the comment that even the OP movement is as fragmented as all of the rest of the Christian community. Out of all of this confusion, we join ourselves into little bands of religious warriors who fight one another (right/wrong games, spiritual one-upmanship contests, harsh accusations and judgments, etc.), while the true enemy sits on the sidelines and cheers us on.

Conclusion: We, as believers in Jesus Christ, are, for the most part, not His true disciples. We more readily follow after our own teaching and traditions or that of other men - before we give Jesus His rightful place in our lives. We even give the Holy Spirit of God a higher position in our lives that what the scriptures assigned to Him (He is a 'Him', never an 'It'). We turn ourselves and the scriptures upside down, and then wonder why we no longer turn the world upside down. Think about it: Why is our culture and society in the shape that it is in? Why have we become ineffective in influencing the world?

The answer is simple. While we talk, look, and sometimes act differently than 'the world', in our own way we have become just a carnal as they are. Salt that looks like it did 2,000 years ago, but for all of its appearance, has lost its saltiness.

I apologize for the rambling, but this seemed like a good time and place to vent.

What meanest thou?

[CC1]

I think 3 steppers look at one steppers as believing baptism is unnecessary while in reality most one steppers view baptism as something very important but something that is a sacrament every believe should want to do as part of following Christ, not something they do as a requirement of salvation.

My one step pastor has preached the importance, beauty, and significance of taking on Christ in water baptism as a symbol of being buried with him, identified with him, etc.

[Justin]

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I'm not sure why anyone would be against baptism...?

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Justin

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I'm not sure why anyone would be against baptism...?

Again, I don't believe anyone here is against baptism.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Socialite

I appreciate your spirit. However, I can't honestly say the same as right here in the bolded.

I understand. I was fortunate to be male, had parents that were reasonable (I was allowed to play sports, be involved in extra-curricular activities, sing in the school choir, act in school plays), our church did not preach against tv, and my pastor did not preach hard standards. The ladies would get a Bible study about once a year in a "women's only" closed door session on the dos and donts. It was also just a part of the church culture. We all knew what the standards were. Our church was considered a liberal church although still pretty staunch on the hair/make up/pants/jewelry stuff.

I know a lot of folks who had terribly negative experiences. I witnessed people being treated wrongly at various points and times. I personally had very few traumatic events. Again, mostly positive.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Cindy

I just wonder about all the seemingly anti-baptism sentiment. Some seem to think it's unnecessary, yet we have scripture to baptize. How do you reconcile that?

I'm not anti-baptism. I am pro-baptism. We mention it almost every Sunday. I just believe justification takes place at faith. After you repent and become a child of God, you should be baptized. Not for justification, but to follow Christ's example, to obey His command to be baptized, to identify with His burial, to publicly declare your faith in the blood of Jesus.

The scripture makes it clear we are forgiven and cleansed at repentance. We are saved by grace through faith.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Have you examined every incidence of conversion in the book of Acts? If so, where is repentance preached in Acts 8, 9 or 10? Did Paul preach repentance to the jailer in Phillippi? Does this lack of the preaching of repentance mean that someone who believes in Christ but does not repent of his sins is saved?

I have always loved this little tid bit of fact. Especially when the "tongues are not a sign everytime" crowd starts bellowing.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by CC1

I think 3 steppers look at one steppers as believing baptism is unnecessary while in reality most one steppers view baptism as something very important but something that is a sacrament every believe should want to do as part of following Christ, not something they do as a requirement of salvation.

My one step pastor has preached the importance, beauty, and significance of taking on Christ in water baptism as a symbol of being buried with him, identified with him, etc.

Actually, CC1, Rom 6:4 says we are buried with Him BY baptism. Don't say anything about it being just a 'symbol'.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Sarah

Actually, CC1, Rom 6:4 says we are buried with Him BY baptism. Don't say anything about it being just a 'symbol'.

Also Gal. 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I was not given my beliefs by a UPC Pastor. I was a Charismatic who started out in the Jesus Movement of the 70's. While yet involved in such groups I came through study of scripture to see that water baptism is essential to salvation.

What could be more simple.

He that believes AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved. He who believes not shall be damned.
Baptism is part of believing.

The Protestant/Evangelical version is the opposite.

He who believes AND IS SAVED should be baptized....

See the difference?

The words of Jesus convinced me to believe what I believe. Not mens words. I was happy to recieve truth and depart from Protestant Evangelical error.

Why does heaven rejoice over one soul that repents (Luke 15) if that soul is still bound for hell? The thief on the cross wasn't baptized yet was saved. Why didn't he have to be baptized?