Hate Of Reformed Theology

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

your not? yeeahhh uh huh.

Grow up.

[mfblume]

[QUOTE=Socialite;1021223]

Then, let me ask you, do you sin, Mike -- or are you now sinless?

Yes I sin. But far far less than in time gone by til now.

Does that mean you are bound to sin?

Put it this way. When Paul said he was bound to sin I believe he meant he caused himself to be bound to it, for he was speaking hypothetically of someone saved, and not unsaved. And he was putting himself in slavery to sin, which is all that we can do with sin once saved. So, yes, I put myself in slavery to sin by simply not walking after the Spirit.

But what you call "maturity," it should evident that it's also SIN!

Oh, I do not water it down at all! IT IS SIN! And it needs repentance that is utmost sincere and genuine. But by the same token, a person may think Paul is simply telling people that if they sin they should not be condemned, and I think that is watering his words down a little. I claim he meant we will not sin and will not therefore be condemned in the way he described it at the end of chapter 7 if we learn to walk in the Spirit and not sin.

Corinthians were called "little children" as well, and referred to as brothers in Christ, and they were fornicating, prideful, etc. It most definitely was a lack of discipleship and maturity, but let's be clear, it's also sin.

Amen!!

Agree. But my point, that you responded to here, is that I have sin. I acknowledge that. Yet, I live in Christ. I am His. And, I'd like to think of myself as a little more mature of a believer too.

It's not about you or me. Maturity, as I honestly see it, is greatest when we are so full of faith that we are seated with Christ above this that it affects our behaviour. That is KINGDOM Christianity. A man who controls his own spirit is greater than one who takes a city.

Again, what you call "immaturity" is still sin.

I never said it wasn't.

See, and the way you phrase this is simply dishonest. "Real Christians," first of all sounds like some grade school kid chest bumping about "real men don't (Fill in the Blank)." Christians are very real and imperfect. So I couldn't disagree with you more.

You need to re-read what I said, for you totally missed it. I said IT IS NOT true that "Real Christians do not sin." I simply responded to your use of terms since you asked me if I thought REAL Christians do not sin. I said that is not the case.

Never said we couldn't STOP. Said we still can't be perfect. It couldn't be more clear in 1 John.

I agree.

Blume, any exegetical commentary on this shows he's referring to the present -- and he's talking to believers. If we have sin, and we aren't "real Christians" then how can we be saved?

Sin is a principle, though. A moral force. And yes we have sin. SINS are actions whether inner or outward.

[Socialite]

Oh, I do not water it down at all! IT IS SIN! And it needs repentance that is utmost sincere and genuine. But by the same token, a person may think Paul is simply telling people that if they sin they should not be condemned, and I think that is watering his words down a little. I claim he meant we will not sin and will not therefore be condemned in the way he described it at the end of chapter 7 if we learn to walk in the Spirit and not sin.

Hmmm... funny, we are not condemned because we are in Christ. So now, even as you admit, and I admit we still sin and have sin, our eternity hangs in the balance of getting that right perfectly?

Quote:
Agree. But my point, that you responded to here, is that I have sin. I acknowledge that. Yet, I live in Christ. I am His. And, I'd like to think of myself as a little more mature of a believer too.
BLUME:
It's not about you or me. Maturity, as I honestly see it, is greatest when we are so full of faith that we are seated with Christ above this that it affects our behaviour. That is KINGDOM Christianity. A man who controls his own spirit is greater than one who takes a city.

I believe it's much to do with you and me. That's where the rubber meets the road on these discussions.

You need to re-read what I said, for you totally missed it. I said IT IS NOT true that "Real Christians do not sin." I simply responded to your use of terms since you asked me if I thought REAL Christians do not sin. I said that is not the case.

Touche'

In all our conversation, not sure I've come closer to understanding your viewpoint any further, or discovering if, in fact, our viewpoints are different. What I do recognize is that you are sensitive to admitting that Christians still sin, wishing to honor what you feel Paul's words are, we are new creation, we are free from sin, and not wanting believers to get the wrong idea. I approach Paul's words with a similar attitude, but do not worry about the word getting out that Christians will still sin -- though they show fruits of victory over sin in their life (ultimately it's Jesus who has victory, and his record, not ours, that justifies us).

I always appreciate your patience in articulating and your honesty when we do.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Hmmm... funny, we are not condemned because we are in Christ.

The word does not say that. It says there is no condemnation to those in Christ WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE flesh. It specifies those IN CHRIST who are not condemned, because we can be in Christ and walking after the flesh, and experiencing condemnation.

So now, even as you admit, and I admit we still sin and have sin, our eternity hangs in the balance of getting that right perfectly?

Our eternity does not hang in the balance of getting this right or wrong. So long as we sin and repent, we are fine. I am just saying we should be enjoying more of life above sin than what we may have realized we can.

I believe it's much to do with you and me. That's where the rubber meets the road on these discussions.

I meant that I am not trying to diss you personally as though you personally are not mature. It's not about you personally in contrast to anyone else.

In all our conversation, not sure I've come closer to understanding your viewpoint any further, or discovering if, in fact, our viewpoints are different. What I do recognize is that you are sensitive to admitting that Christians still sin, wishing to honor what you feel Paul's words are, we are new creation, we are free from sin, and not wanting believers to get the wrong idea. I approach Paul's words with a similar attitude, but do not worry about the word getting out that Christians will still sin

I do not worry about that at all. I deal with it all the time in my ministry. I talk much about sinning and not letting it kill our faith. I am just saying that the bible does not call saved people "sinners". I think it adds to the expectation to sin, which is wrong, when we call ourselves sinners in ways the bible does not. Paul was trying to remove that expectancy.

-- though they show fruits of victory over sin in their life (ultimately it's Jesus who has victory, and his record, not ours, that justifies us).

I always appreciate your patience in articulating and your honesty when we do.

I agree Jesus gets all the glory, which is why we must stop trying in our power and lean on His Spirit! Thanks for your participation as well.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Socialite View Post
Hmmm... funny, we are not condemned because we are in Christ. So now, even as you admit, and I admit we still sin and have sin, our eternity hangs in the balance of getting that right perfectly?
BLUME: Our eternity does not hang in the balance of getting this right or wrong. So long as we sin and repent, we are fine. I am just saying we should be enjoying more of life above sin than what we may have realized we can.

AMEN!!

** RUNNING THE AISLES**

Also, when we sin, I don't believe we are kicked out of relationship with Christ. If we continue in willful and habitual sin, living a life in rebellion to God, then we are outside of Christ and no longer viewed by God in Christ. Some say we must have this anxious fit of repentance to make sure we are still accepted. I think that also is maturity. This does not negate continual turning to God and handing over issues that are sinful either... but it's not tit-for-tat in God's economy.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Socialite

AMEN!!

** RUNNING THE AISLES**

Also, when we sin, I don't believe we are kicked out of relationship with Christ. If we continue in willful and habitual sin, living a life in rebellion to God, then we are outside of Christ and no longer viewed by God in Christ. Some say we must have this anxious fit of repentance to make sure we are still accepted. I think that also is maturity. This does not negate continual turning to God and handing over issues that are sinful either... but it's not tit-for-tat in God's economy.

I agree, joining you in running the aisles!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Again Luke, in case you have a hard time hearing, I'm not OSAS

Nor am I, "Never Saved, Hard To Be Saved" AHEM

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

your not? yeeahhh uh huh.

Luke47 appears to fall victim to that old scourge, "Binary Thinking." Everything's "either/or."

"Either you agree with me or you're lost to a devil's hell." "Either you suffer the same torments my dysfunctional mind and consciousness bears or you accept 'Easy Believism.'"

He confuses this malady with "being logical" because his conclusions appear consistent to himself. He must ignore gigabytes of data to reach those conclusions, however.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Grow up.

what because you continue to say one thing and then another?


Is justification once for all, or off-and-on through one's life?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

what because you continue to say one thing and then another?


Is justification once for all, or off-and-on through one's life?

Jesus paid the price, "...once and for all...!"

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

what because you continue to say one thing and then another?


Is justification once for all, or off-and-on through one's life?

Let's hear your answer