The First Church of Utopia

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Think you need to take a closer look at Pauls instruction to the church:

1 Cor 5:11-6:1

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


KJV



It wasn't refering to just incest but sinful rebellious lifestyle in general of a "brother" Maybe our church would be better off following Paul's instructions, I think so.

TS, respectfully this is a gross distortion of the situation.

When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10 But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy, or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer[j] yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.

12 It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. 13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.”

If my brother falls -- and he is a professed Christian, a disciple -- and I love him, and I am committed to serving him. I definitely have a duty to be there for him when he falls. To point him back to the Gospel... this should mirror:

Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer[a] is overcome by some sin, you who are godly[b] should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself. 2 Share each other’s burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ. 3 If you think you are too important to help someone, you are only fooling yourself. You are not that important.

With epistles, we must understand the Apostle addresses unique situations, and before making them normative and universal, we should bring caution to our application. Gordon Fee has written much on these two chapters, from an exegetical opinion sharper than mine, and I believe it's close to the heart of what Paul was instructing.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by notofworks

But you can't possibly know that. Jesus instructed Peter to forgive seven times. The word, "forgive", among other things, means to "Cease punishment." At a certain point, Peter approached Jesus and said, "Was it seven times", and it seems as though Peter was having a problem with someone and was counting down his opponents failures.

Jesus said, "No, seven times seven."

So God expects US to be THAT forgiving. Just imagine how forgiving God is.

Yes, that is true. Only God knows our hearts and the condition of our souls. We cannot judge others hearts.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by MrMasterMind

W

My good friend you have unfortunately described a church without people.

But like personal holiness a worthy goal nonetheless.

Ah, but I can dream. I can try. I would rather try and fail than not try, than be satisfied with anything less.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Good sign one hasn't repented his he continues to do it. "sinnETH" he that sinneth if of the devil according to John.

That's because repenting is a New Year's Resolution to you. A list of "I wont do this anymore"s. The Moralism, not the Gospel.

Many people who have turned toward God (repenting) are learning and growing in sanctification. They should be encouraged, the Gospel brought to their lives, not kicked out.

If you start kicking them out, then kick me out too.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Socialite

That's because repenting is a New Year's Resolution to you. A list of "I wont do this anymore"s

Many people who have turned toward God (repenting) are learning and growing in sanctification. They should be encouraged, the Gospel brought to their lives, not kicked out.

If you start kicking them out, then kick me out too.

Ahhh, SO true!!! I heard Jim Cymbala say once, "Stop trying to turn over a new leaf!! You'll never be able to do that!"

[scotty]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Socialite, I know you know this, but it's not just the cons that wag their fingers at the broken, it's all of us. The liberals are just as guilty. It's a human-nature, sin-nature problem, that causes so many in the Christian world to crow with the Pharisee, "I thank my God that I am not like other men...". Paul wrote about his own tendencies in Romans 7 and then said to the CORINTHIAN church, no less, "If you think you are standing strong, be careful, for you, too, may fall into the same sin." (10:12)

Sin doesn't ask us first if we're liberal or conservative, it just shows up at our door. And when it does, I want to do everything in my power to have created an environment where that person is smothered with love and care and never looked down upon.

Post of the Day

Originally Posted by Socialite

Your speaking as a fool, Scotty.

Grace doesn't just cover. It's not just a passive legal device. It's a real empowering, sanctifying work. Have patience with other brothers. Your poop stinks too!

Tsk Tsk, was that one line really neccesary ? just sayin. Wheres the grace you were just speaking of ? This is why the church you seek will never exist, because no matter how much you talk about acting with loving grace, you simply can not live it.

Originally Posted by notofworks

You know, there isn't really a verse that gives us the "cut-off" point. But I don't know that we really need one. I don't think one was provided for us because it never comes up. The people I have seen smothered by grace have been the very ones who are so smitten with God and His mercy, that they are magnetically drawn to God more than ever!

I once sat in the office on a Saturday with two parents and their daughter, who was in the choir, who had been caught in the back seat of a car with a boy on a Friday night. Yes, they were doing THAT.

She was devastated. Broken. Embarrassed.

It was assumed that she wouldn't be doing anything in the church for a while and strongly insisted that she stand in the choir the next day with her head held high, understanding that she was forgiven, restored, and on exactly the same level as anyone else in that choir. There was no way I could allow that choir to sing about God's grace the next day if it didn't have any grace.

Today, that girl is married with two beautiful children and a great family there was never an issue again. But had there been, we would have done the same thing again.

Beautiful !

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Wouldn't you want to have someone like this show up at your church for salvation?

We should have a church full of needy people - - and not needy saints!

Sure I would, and I would welcome them with open arms.

Originally Posted by notofworks

If you're covered in grace, you're going to run to grace. If you're not covered in grace, you're going to run from grace.

Agreed .

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Socialite View Post
Your speaking as a fool, Scotty.

Grace doesn't just cover. It's not just a passive legal device. It's a real empowering, sanctifying work. Have patience with other brothers. Your poop stinks too!
Tsk Tsk, was that one line really neccesary ? just sayin. Wheres the grace you were just speaking of ? This is why the church you seek will never exist, because no matter how much you talk about acting with loving grace, you simply can not live it.

Scotty, in all my interaction with you, not once have I felt you brought sobriety, consideration or sincerity to our dialogue. At least with me.

And your haggling over this topic by throwing out things that are "out there," "untrue" and misleading are certainly foolish sounding. So, yes, I evidently felt it was necessary.

Is the manner in which you discuss topics necessary?

[MrMasterMind]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Ah, but I can dream. I can try. I would rather try and fail than not try, than be satisfied with anything less.

Perhaps you missed my" goal "point. We are commanded to be holy even as GOD is holy. As long as we are under the blood and striving toward that mark His righteousness is imputed to us. Even when we fall short.

Likewise local churches should aspire to an ideal like you described whether attainable or not.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by notofworks

You know, there isn't really a verse that gives us the "cut-off" point. But I don't know that we really need one. I don't think one was provided for us because it never comes up. The people I have seen smothered by grace have been the very ones who are so smitten with God and His mercy, that they are magnetically drawn to God more than ever!

I once sat in the office on a Saturday with two parents and their daughter, who was in the choir, who had been caught in the back seat of a car with a boy on a Friday night. Yes, they were doing THAT.

She was devastated. Broken. Embarrassed.

It was assumed that she wouldn't be doing anything in the church for a while but I strongly insisted that she stand in the choir the next day with her head held high, understanding that she was forgiven, restored, and on exactly the same level as anyone else in that choir. There was no way I could allow that choir to sing about God's grace the next day if it didn't have any grace.

Today, that girl is married with two beautiful children and a great family there was never an issue again. But had there been, we would have done the same thing again.

You are on a roll.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Socialite, I know you know this, but it's not just the cons that wag their fingers at the broken, it's all of us. The liberals are just as guilty. It's a human-nature, sin-nature problem, that causes so many in the Christian world to crow with the Pharisee, "I thank my God that I am not like other men...". Paul wrote about his own tendencies in Romans 7 and then said to the CORINTHIAN church, no less, "If you think you are standing strong, be careful, for you, too, may fall into the same sin." (10:12)

Sin doesn't ask us first if we're liberal or conservative, it just shows up at our door. And when it does, I want to do everything in my power to have created an environment where that person is smothered with love and care and never looked down upon.

Something's stirring......love this post!