The Slippery Emergent Slope - Page 12

Apprehended · #**111** 03-04-2011, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

That doesn't make sense. As if Appy or others (like me who denounce Universalism as an errant doctrine) don't see Jesus as Savior. If anything, our emphasis on His saving role -- and the urgency of His saving role are all the more.

Thanks.

I was felt certain that I was not alone in that view. Thanks for expressing it.

Socialite · #**112** 03-04-2011, 05:28 PM

Aside from the scriptural gymnastics Universalists must do to overlook an abundance of scripture that refers to a final -- and even eternal judgement (spoken often by Jesus himself), here are some other things:

Until the 19th Century, almost all Christian theologians had some understanding and even taught the reality of eternal death. There were some outside of the theological mainstream who believed in conditional immortality (annihilationism), and even fewer who advocated universal salvation. Eternal punishment/death is articulated fully in the creeds and confessions of the Church, a teaching seemingly indispensable. Things changed in the 1800's.

Really great scholarly essay here by Bauckham: http://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-document...2_Bauckham.pdf

Socialite · #**113** 03-04-2011, 05:30 PM

I hate to sound like a UC, but a relevant verse would be Jesus' "Narrow is the way that leads to righteousness." This means there's a broad and attractive way that leads to death. Theological death is separation from God, which as far as I'm concerned, would justify Jesus' frequent analogies to fires, worms not dying, unquenched fires, etc...

Apprehended · #**114** 03-04-2011, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

I hate to sound like a UC, but a relevant verse would be Jesus' "Narrow is the way that leads to righteousness." This means there's a broad and attractive way that leads to death. Theological death is separation from God, which as far as I'm concerned, would justify Jesus' frequent analogies to fires, worms not dying, unquenched fires, etc...

Sounding like an UC is not all that bad.

Welcome to the circle of the Holy.

Your statement above is excellent, not to mention the LAKE OF FIRE:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

] Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

NotforSale · #**115** 03-04-2011, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

Aside from the scriptural gymnastics Universalists must do to overlook an abundance of scripture that refers to a final -- and even eternal judgement (spoken often by Jesus himself), here are some other things:

Until the 19th Century, almost all Christian theologians had some understanding and even taught the reality of eternal death. There were some outside of the theological mainstream who believed in conditional immortality (annihilationism), and even fewer who advocated universal salvation. Eternal punishment/death is articulated fully in the creeds and confessions of the Church, a teaching seemingly indispensable. Things changed in the 1800's.

Really great scholarly essay here by Bauckham: http://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-document...2_Bauckham.pdf

Below is a very interesting Website. I think it's very important to consider that Translational error is not only possible, but proven, concerning Eternal Punishment.

It's funny how we criticize the Evolution theory as having a "Missing Link", without realizing that Eternal Torture has many "Missing Links".

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/He...e_Forever.html

Socialite · #**116** 03-04-2011, 05:44 PM

And while many argue over the word "forever" in common with Isaiah 34.9-10 and Revelation 14.10-11, John 3 offers the word "eternal" in a juxtaposed way (eternal life/eternal death). There doesn't seem to be a hyperbolic context, or one where the author is using exalted language as may be the case in Revelation and is most certainly the case in Isaiah.

I find the position of UR's that tends to say God's character is somehow mocked, or is not His, if he were to allow people to remain death, to be arrogant, ignorant and a little idolatrous. God will save whom He will save, and have mercy upon whom he will have mercy. The Divine Prerogative is of a God who is Just, not one who does everything we want him to.

And does God desire one thing and yet ordain another? Yes. (The argument about "If God desired that all would be saved, then they would).

Yes, God can desire one thing and ordain another. For example, it is clear that God does not want people to sin, yet Acts 2:23 states, "this Man [Jesus], delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." God planned that Jesus go to the cross. But in order to do that, men had to sin for it to occur. Did God want them to sin? No, but it was part of God's ordained plan.

Socialite · #**117** 03-04-2011, 05:48 PM

Quote:

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Relevant passage today...

That said, if someone has doubts about final states, etc but still believes that everyone needs Jesus in their life, promotes the preaching of the Cross and Gospel, I may believe their suspicions are errant, but certainly don't view this as apostasy on unpardonable (pun intended) grounds. In others words, "we be brothers."

I find most UR's are "wishful thinkers."

Apprehended · #**118** 03-04-2011, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

I find most UR's are "wishful thinkers."

Or, maybe wistful thinkers instead?

Socialite · #**119** 03-04-2011, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Or, maybe wistful thinkers instead?

Reflecting on this... what are the implications of those who are agnostic about final states, don't believe in eternal death (literally) or that do believe in eternal death? What does that mean for the person and their faith? Implications?

Apprehended · #**120** 03-04-2011, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

Reflecting on this... what are the implications of those who are agnostic about final states, don't believe in eternal death (literally) or that do believe in eternal death? What does that mean for the person and their faith? Implications?

Once again, it is only an opinion without adequate scripture at my disposal, I believe that there is an inward terror of facing God in judgment that lies deep within each man who knows not God. Paul said, "Knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men..." I believe that terror is the source of all wistful thinking and much of their turmoil arising from the resentment from having to face a certain judgment. I believe that it is so subtle in their subconsciousness that they could never admit that it is there.

Again, an opinion that I feel can be substantiated by scripture that the implications in regards to a person and their faith, there abides a peace and a deep settled assurance at the same prospects of judgment to come.

But, I'm sure that you could add much more to this from your perspective than I have introduced here.

All of this...if I properly understood your question....