The Thief on the Cross - Page 17

Adam · #**161** 03-10-2011, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apprehended

WHO or WHAT is a Yeshua? What does a Yeshua do?

It's the sound you make when you sneeze, I think. Godzundheit.

Apprehended · #**162** 03-10-2011, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

It's the sound you make when you sneeze, I think. Godzundheit.

Monarchianism · #**163** 03-10-2011, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

Really? You don't know any that way? I'm amazed. All I can say is give it time and you will.

As far as doing two but not the last... the last isn't something we do... the last (receiving the Holy Ghost) is a promise and is something God does, not us.

What does being born of the water and Spirit mean to me? Being born of water means to follow (a)the one who came by water and blood, Jesus ((a)1 John 5:6). Being born of Spirit means to believe the testimony that the Spirit gave of Jesus.

Even if I "give it time," the Word declares that they won't make it w/o it.
In receiving the Holy Spirit, I meant seeking for it.
It's not every time that a person is baptized and it comes then and there.

Sorry it took so long. I was analyzing it in different versions, but don't have to! Verse 4 speaks of being born of God. Verse 6 speaks of the Spirit as the witness. Now, give me a person in this chapter that received it on "easy-believism."

jfrog · #**164** 03-10-2011, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monarchianism

Even if I "give it time," the Word declares that they won't make it w/o it.

??????????? And that has nothing to do with what I asked. See my next paragraph for what I was asking.

In receiving the Holy Spirit, I meant seeking for it.
It's not every time that a person is baptized and it comes then and there.

I'm not talking about it coming then and there. I'm talking about the people who seek (after repenting and being baptized) it 30 times, 40 times, 50 times or more and they don't get it. And so they go on through life without the Holy Ghost and eventually die. What I am asking is whether God lied when he promised these repented and baptized people the Holy Ghost and they never get it?

Sorry it took so long. I was analyzing it in different versions, but don't have to! Verse 4 speaks of being born of God. Verse 6 speaks of the Spirit as the witness. Now, give me a person in this chapter that received it on "easy-believism."

You asked my opinion on what it meant to be born of water and Spirit. I told you MY OPINION. I also gave you a reference verse, not because the reference said what I was saying. I wouldn't have had to give you my opinion if it did. Instead i gave you the reference verse only to help point you toward what i was thinking (and to verify that Jesus was the who came of water and blood). It was not a proof-text (at least not about my opinion). So I'm not sure why you are asking me questions about it as if I was using it to prove my opinion.

I wanted to add one thing. Saying the Spirit is witness has nothing to do with tongues in this chapter.

Sam · #**165** 03-10-2011, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monarchianism

That's not the point. Are you saying that it is possible for God to lie now?
Doesn't the Word say that a man "must" be born of the water and of the Spirit?
If english means anything then "must" is not a "if you want to."

God cannot lie.

if you are a human, you have been "born of water."
That term refers to our first birth or our birth into the human family.
But that first birth is not enough.
We need a second birth.

When Jesus told Nicodemus that we need to be born again (or born from above as it could read in the Greek), he didn't understand what Jesus was talking about. He asked, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?" Jesus went on to explain that there are two births --one (the first birth) of water and another (the second birth) of the Spirit. The first birth is of a human parent and the second birth is of a Divine Parent. The first birth puts us into the human family and the second birth puts us into God's family. The first birth results in physical life and the second birth results in spiritual life. Jesus goes on in verses 10 - 21 of that third chapter of John and explains that the new birth happens when one believes in Jesus.

jfrog · #**166** 03-10-2011, 11:56 AM

Monarchianism, here is a prooftext for you. 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

So now we know what it takes to be born of God, we must believe on Jesus. And since being born of God happens after our natural birth then being born of God is being born again. So being born of God is what Jesus was telling Nicodemus he had to do in John 3:3. Jesus further elaborates in John 3:5 that being born of God means to be born of water and Spirit. Now I hope you have followed me so far because what I am about to say will blow your mind. Since those that believe are born of God then those that believe have been born of water and Spirit!

You see, I don't even have to define the exact meaning of being born of water and Spirit. I can speculate on what it means if I want. But in the end, all I must know is that by believing on God one is born of water and Spirit.

LUKE2447 · #**167** 03-10-2011, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

Monarchianism, here is a prooftext for you. 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

So now we know what it takes to be born of God, we must believe on Jesus. And since being born of God happens after our natural birth then being born of God is being born again. So being born of God is what Jesus was telling Nicodemus he had to do in John 3:3. Jesus further elaborates in John 3:5 that being born of God means to be born of water and Spirit. Now I hope you have followed me so far because what I am about to say will blow your mind. Since those that believe are born of God then those that believe have been born of water and Spirit!

You see, I don't even have to define the exact meaning of being born of water and Spirit. I can speculate on what it means if I want. But in the end, all I must know is that by believing on God one is born of water and Spirit.

oh of course. Mental assent = born again.

jfrog · #**168** 03-10-2011, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

oh of course. Mental assent = born again.

I know you are being sarcastic but that is exactly what I am saying!

What do you think my bolded part of 1 John 5:1 means?

Apprehended · #**169** 03-10-2011, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

if you are a human, you have been "born of water."
That term refers to our first birth or our birth into the human family.
But that first birth is not enough.
We need a second birth.

When Jesus told Nicodemus that we need to be born again (or born from above as it could read in the Greek), he didn't understand what Jesus was talking about. He asked, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?" Jesus went on to explain that there are two births --one (the first birth) of water and another (the second birth) of the Spirit. The first birth is of a human parent and the second birth is of a Divine Parent. The first birth puts us into the human family and the second birth puts us into God's family. The first birth results in physical life and the second birth results in spiritual life. Jesus goes on in verses 10 - 21 of that third chapter of John and explains that the new birth happens when one believes in Jesus.

If you are human, you are born of water?

Now Sam, if you look at that scripture, your statement leaves anyone considering it out wandering around in space. You should know that is not what Jesus meant. Look at it again with reason and you will discover that Jesus is not in the least speaking of the mother's womb. No, of course not, "that which is flesh, is (already) flesh." But, you MUST BE born again of the water and of the Spirit.

jfrog · #**170** 03-10-2011, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apprehended

If you are human, you are born of water?

Now Sam, if you look at that scripture, your statement leaves anyone considering it out wandering around in space. You should know that is not what Jesus meant. Look at it again with reason and you will discover that Jesus is not in the least speaking of the mother's womb. No, of course not, "that which is flesh, is (already) flesh." But, you MUST BE born again of the water and of the Spirit.

Spirit in John 3:5 didn't refer to water and Spirit. This is obvious because water and Spirit are differentiated. So how can Spirit in verse 6 refer to water and Spirit? That doesn't make much sense now does it? So now we have a new question: why did Jesus even mention being born of water in John 3:5 and then never mention it again. Unless he did mention it again under a different name... "flesh".

I'm not saying Sam's explanation is correct. I'm just saying that as much as his explanation doesn't make sense that the explanation of tying the words water and spirit from verse 5 into just the word spirit in verse 6 doesn't make much sense either. I'm also saying that Jesus just never mentioning the water part again doesn't make much sense either. It appears to me that no explanation of John 3:5 makes very much sense in context.